[Bonus Episode] Walking Through Depression

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:09

Unfiltered podcast here. My name is Lee Stevenson. I have the privilege of serving Converge as the executive director of church planting and got my co host here.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:19

My name is Danny Parmalee and I work with Converge Mid America, overseeing the church planting there.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:24

And we're excited to have another very real conversation about church planting. Let me take a moment and just introduce to you all our guests for this episode. This is Jeff Gauss.

Jeff, why don't you say hi and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Jeff Gauss: 00:00:39

Hey, Lee and Danny and everyone, it's great to be here with you today. As said, my name's Jeff. Been a church planter for about 17, 18 years, I guess.

Planted three different churches, have a wonderful, beautiful wife named Heidi. Been married for 23 years, and we have six kids, the oldest of which we just dropped off at college last week or two weeks ago.

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:03

Hey, congratulations, man. Now you got five more. You got to get out the house.

Jeff Gauss: 00:01:07

Yeah, only 11 more years.

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:14

Who's counting, right? Well, Jeff, I appreciate you taking the time to be with us on this episode. And you planted three churches.

What part of the country have you been planted in?

Jeff Gauss: 00:01:27

Midwest. So Minnesota, and now I'm in North Dakota.

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:31

So small towns, big towns. Tell us a little bit about the area in context.

Jeff Gauss: 00:01:37

Yeah, the first church plant was in St. Paul, Minnesota, urban center. Kind of a young professional, college student area of the city.

ah, planted a church there in: 2008

That town is about close to 9,000 now, I guess.

And then two years ago, we moved over to plant this new church in Grand Forks, North Dakota, which is about 100,000 people in the, I guess, greater Grand Forks area.

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:24

So, Jeff, you're considered a serial church planter.

Jeff Gauss: 00:02:28

It's not like a serial killer or.

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:30

Well, just as crazy.

Lee Stephenson: 00:02:34

What it means. Yeah, yeah. So he continues to sign up for craziness and to get out there and have fun planting.

Jeff Gauss: 00:02:42

Yeah, you think I would have learned by now.

Lee Stephenson: 00:02:44

Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm doing it again too, so I'm just one behind you at this point.

Jeff Gauss: 00:02:49

Well, if you need any pointers, I could coach you.

Lee Stephenson: 00:02:52

I appreciate it. Well, and Jeff, you're also a key voice in helping leading kind of church planning within your district as well.

Jeff Gauss: 00:03:03

Yeah, that's right.

For just About a year ago, I took over overseeing church planting for the heartland district of Converge, which is probably the most sparsely populated district I imagine, and geographically spread out, but it's north and South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma and also Kansas City. So. But that's been, it's been a lot of fun. Feels like really in my sweet spot just being able to share a lot of the things I've experienced.

I guess I picked up over 17 years of experience in different contexts, so it's been pretty fun.

Lee Stephenson: 00:03:38

All right, that's fantastic. Well, this is kind of another unique conversation that we're having today.

And I think it's in light of even recent news stories that have hit the newsline of a pastor in California that was pastoring a church plant, fairly fast growing church, by all means, from the outside, successful, you know, from, from those terms, committed suicide after, I guess, kind of unannounced, but was wrestling with depression, anxiety issues for some time and was eventually overcome with that. I know for you, you have a heart for pastors, you have a heart for church planters.

One of the things that we've talked about just each and every episode is that this is a unique world and there's unique pressures that come with planting churches and just within ministry in and of itself.

And you have a story of some of those challenges on a personal level that connects somewhat with the story of what we saw play out even in California.

And so I want to allow you to just take a moment and try to talk to a little bit about where you've been, some of the struggles that you faced, and, and we'll talk a little bit about what you've learned about God, yourself and even how you've journeyed through that.

Jeff Gauss: 00:04:59

Yeah, you know, it's just, it's so tragic whenever you hear about anyone that took their own life. And you know, we actually here in North Dakota have the highest suicide rate per capita for 17 years running.

So it's become unfortunately kind of normal around here to see that, see or hear of that happening. And you know, almost everybody knows somebody that, that has taken their own life. And it's especially tragic when a pastor does that.

But you know, of course pastors aren't immune to the pressures and life and we're human and everything. So, you know, I've, I've battled depression since, you know, the first time I can really think about being depressed.

I was late, 13, early 14 years old. My sister had, who was 16, was killed in a car accident and I just fell after that.

I just fell into a Deep, deep depression where I didn't just pull the shade shut in my room and just laid in bed for probably over a month, you know, didn't come out for anything except for to, you know, go to the bathroom. And, you know, my parents think finally got me into some counseling then, which was really beneficial.

But that was really, I think, the start of, I guess, my journey or experience with depression, which has really just been kind of a lifelong story, kind of a thorn in my side or a blessing. I don't know what it is yet.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:35

But probably depends on the day and how it feels.

Jeff Gauss: 00:06:38

Definitely depends on the day. So it's a blessing when I get to share my story with other people, I think, and hopefully it helps.

But, yeah, I'm 45 now, so we're talking about, like, 32 years. Not really good with math, but 32 years or so that it's been a struggle.

And, you know, the whole time I've been in ministry, which has been a unique challenge.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:59

Yeah. Tell us a little bit about what you've learned about the struggle of depression.

That would be helpful for other pastors that, number one, don't understand it. But then, number two, that may be facing it themselves.

Jeff Gauss: 00:07:18

Yeah.

hurch, and so probably around: 2010

we live. But in, I think it's: 2010

I had no real issues with leaders or anything going on. Everything was great. Our family was great, except for I was just miserable.

And I remember I was gonna go play disc golf with some guys, and I was trying to find my Frisbee discs, my golf discs, and I couldn't find them. And I just broke down sobbing. And I was like, what is going on here? Like, I. I'm sobbing because I can't find my golf disc. This just is.

This is just, you know, messed up worse than I thought. But anyway, I did end up finding him. Went and played disc golf.

But then when I came back home, I pulled the car into the garage and I was just overcome with this urge to just shut the garage door and just leave the Car running and just to do what this other pastor did, tragically just end it all.

And I knew then that, all right, I need to really get some serious help, because I can't blame it on, you know, this person or that situation or circumstance or on the winter or anything. You know, it's. Everything's great, weather's great. I'm just miserable. So. So I made a decision then that I was going to get some help.

So first conversation I had was with my wife and just saying, you know what? Look, things I'm not doing well. I haven't been well for a long time. You know, she knew some of it, but she never knew how bad it was.

Never wanted to burden her with those things. And that's one of the things with depression is it just totally isolates you from everybody, right? You just.

You feel like you're alone in your struggle. If you're a Christian, especially probably if you're a pastor, you feel like, you know, I should be more spiritual than this.

I should be able to overcome this. I should be able to. To get through this with God's help or. Or just muscle through it or whatever.

Danny Parmelee: 00:09:56

So were you scared to have that conversation? Was there a lot of fear?

Or were you just really at that point where you're like, I need to reach out for help, and obviously Heidi is the first person I need to talk to. Or was there apprehension there of those same feelings?

Jeff Gauss: 00:10:11

Well, I think there's always a little apprehension or fear whenever you're kind of divulging your deep, dark secrets, you know, are sharing something that's really personal and internal that nobody else really knows. Fortunately, I have an amazing wife that's just been so. So supportive along the way.

And now because of that, she's the one typically, actually that recognizes when I'm falling into depression before I even do, because I've just shared with her, you know, what's going on inside and what to look for. And so now she sees those warning signs, and she. She's able to spot them and say, hey, you know what? I think you're getting depressed.

You need to maybe need to take some steps.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:00

Talk to us, and, you know, if you're comfortable with it, talk to us. Like, what are those type of signs? What were the things that you voiced to your wife that said, hey, these are things to watch out for?

Jeff Gauss: 00:11:14

So, again, like, depression is really isolating. So whenever. I mean, I'm an introvert by nature, but I'm smart enough to know that I need community. But when I start Isolating myself.

Start isolating myself from the family, start isolating myself from the, the church, from relationships.

That's a big sign when I don't want to do anything, when, you know, exercise, stop exercising, eat more unhealthy, either sleeping a lot or not sleeping. Really moody, like short, short fuse, short temper. Everything seems to irritate me. Those are all, all warning signs.

And again, there are things that I think she's able to pick up on before I do because I think depression is really self deceiving, you know, you don't. I think, I think too a lot of pastors and Christians and people in general don't really realize that they're depressed.

They think, oh, I'm just having a bad day or oh, I'm just really tired or oh, I'm just been in a funk or you know, whatever, I'm not sleeping well. But that's really what depression is. It's just, it's a sustained low, I guess.

And the thing with depression is that the things that you need to do to get healthy are exactly the things that you don't want to do when you're depressed. And that's where the real battle is.

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:50

Yeah, that's well said. I appreciate that. What have you personally learned about your own journey with the Lord through some of this?

Jeff Gauss: 00:13:00

I think one of the things that I've really learned is that I need a way of holding on to God when it seems like he's let go of me or I need a way of seeing him in the dark.

And so I've really strived, I guess, to really discover disciplines and be disciplined with some spiritual things so that I can still have that sense of reality, you know, have that sense of that God's still there even when I can't feel him, even when I can't hear him or see Him. And again, it's like it's counter nature, right? It's like you have to force.

I have to force myself to do things that I don't want to do because I know that they're healthy for me.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:03

When you said that you wanted to reach out for professional help, what did that look like? Obviously that was a pretty significant kind of shakeup experience.

So then was it, man, you need like intense, we need to meet every single day for, you know, the next three weeks or three months or what was a little bit of that process. And then what is your kind of schedule now? Do you just do checkups from time to time? If you're, if you're willing to share that Stuff.

Jeff Gauss: 00:14:32

Yeah, absolutely. So you. When I had that episode pulling into the garage, and, you know, first I talked with my wife, Heidi, and then I made two phone calls.

I called a doctor and I called a Christian counselor, and I set up appointments with both. So I went to a medical. Dr. Forsyth, guy doctor in our church, who just was so. So understanding and so supportive. And I just.

I just told him, hey, I think I need some help here. This is what I've been dealing with.

I've been dealing with it for years, and I've wondered if maybe I should get on medication, but I've just always resisted it. And that was probably the best decision I ever made, was just to be like, I think I need some drugs. I think I need some meds.

And so that was eight years ago, and I've been on them ever since.

And, you know, because of that, I think my depression, I still get depressed, but it's a matter of it lasting for days or maybe a week instead of months at a time, you know, and the lows aren't as low as they were before that. But then I also made an appointment with a Christian counselor and went to counseling. And I. I still go to counseling.

So I still see a counselor regularly.

And this is part of my, I guess, personal growth or personal health plan, is to see a counselor to take care of myself physically and spiritually, emotionally and mentally and relationally, as well as I can.

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:15

Help us out on this, Jeff, because I know a lot of pastors, and maybe it's just a guy thing, too, struggle with the idea of going to see a counselor, and there's probably an unhealthy fear that exists there. Did you feel that? If so, how'd you overcome it? What advice would you give to guys?

Jeff Gauss: 00:16:42

I think one of my blessings and curses is that I'm just almost too vulnerable sometimes. So remember having a pastor tell me once he said, you know, your problem is just too authentic sometimes.

So for me, I mean, going to counselor wasn't a problem. Like, the counselor would always say, like, you know, this is really refreshing.

Like, you usually have to fight through all the BS with pastors, especially in counseling, and you just lay it all out there. And so for me, that wasn't a problem.

But for, you know, guys who do struggle with that, you know, I just say, this is something that I really learned that has become my mantra that I share with other people through this whole process, is that the best gift that you can give yourself and that you can give your church and that you can give your Family is a healthy you.

And so, you know, if you want to serve your family well, you want to serve your church well, and you want to serve God well, then you owe it to yourself to be the healthiest version of you that you can be. And so that if that includes going to counseling, I mean, really, I'm a firm believer that every pastor should be in counseling.

I mean, the weight of ministry is just so great. And who are you going to share that with? I mean, hopefully you have a couple of friends, peers that you can share it with, you know, but.

But our wives don't need to carry all that burden. And, you know, we can't carry that burden ourselves. And so just to go.

For me, it's been so helpful to go to somebody that's just a neutral party, or I can just go, bleh, here it is. And, you know, she. Or he's not gonna. Not gonna judge and doesn't. Doesn't even know, you know, all the details of the situation. And I can just.

I can just let it all out. And it's just so helpful just to be able to talk about it. So I guess if you're.

If you're thinking about it or struggling with making that choice, just. Just make the call. Just man up and. And do it. It's not a sign of weakness.

It's a sign of health, I think, and a sign of strength that you're willing to take the difficult steps that you need to take so that you can be healthy.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:57

All right, well, as long as we're going unfiltered here, my other question is some may have a problem with going to counseling. Others would maybe have problem with the thought of going on medication or even have a theological issue with it. Give us your.

Give us your two cents on that.

Jeff Gauss: 00:19:16

Yeah, I'd love to.

Lee Stephenson: 00:19:21

I mean, he is too authentic.

Jeff Gauss: 00:19:26

That kept me.

That thought of, you know, not wanting to go on meds kept me from getting meds for, you know, probably 20 years or whatever, because I grew up in a really, you know, I guess, charismatic church that was like, you just prayed for everything, you know, and if you didn't. If you didn't just believe God or you didn't pray or you weren't healed and you didn't believe God well enough for it.

And so that kept me from going sooner than I should have.

But I tell you, it was the best decision that I ever made, and here's why I don't have a problem with it, is because I think depression is multifaceted. It's holistic, it's spiritual, it's emotional, it's mental and it's physical. And so you need to fight it on all of those fronts.

And you can fight it spiritually, absolutely, through prayer and scripture and whatever. You need to fight it relationally also by having good friends, having good support network around you.

You need to fight it emotionally, you need to fight it physically through diet and exercise. You need to fight it mentally, which is where the meds come in.

And so what I tell people is that you need to be able to get yourself to a place where you can then take the necessary steps.

And for a lot of people, including myself, you can't get to the place that you need to be to take that first step until you get the synapses firing correctly or better in your brain, you know, and depression is having a serotonin deficiency, you know, it's a biological thing. You know, it doesn't mean that it can't be that there's not spiritual dimensions too, but there's definitely a biological aspect or physiological.

Whatever. Not a doctor, whatever the word is.

Lee Stephenson: 00:21:29

Hey, they both work for me, man. So.

Jeff Gauss: 00:21:31

But you know that a lot of times you need meds to help so that you can get that. And you know, I believe that God, God is the healer and he gives doctors knowledge to give us meds that can help with that.

So why not take advantage of it?

Lee Stephenson: 00:21:53

I appreciate that. Any just last words of advice that you would give to people that may be listening to this that are just personally struggling.

Jeff Gauss: 00:22:05

I think just be honest about it and then be brave about it. And I think you really have to have courage to say, I'm going to take those steps. I'm going to be authentic about it.

I'm going to let people know that can help people that need to know.

I mean, you don't necessarily need to go announce it on Sunday to your congregation or whatever, although I've always been open about it with our congregation. But you need to tell people that need to know and can help. And so just take the steps. And you know, I think it's different for everybody.

So you got to figure out what helps you.

But like I said, you know, battling on all of those fronts, not just one dimensional, don't just go to a doctor and get meds, don't just go to counseling, don't just change your diet or pray more or whatever. Do all of those things. All of those things, I think work together. And that's the beauty that God created it.

Lee Stephenson: 00:23:20

That's great. So any last questions that you have, Danny.

So, Jeff, thanks so much for taking the time to be with us and being real, being raw, and just sharing the journey that God has taken you on and what you've personally learned. I think this is a very helpful episode for many that are out there. And I want.

If you're here and you're kind of wrestling, I want you to know we're here for you. Let us know.

Feel free to contact anybody within the converged circle, and we'd be glad to be able to sit and have a conversation with you and help help direct you in the right direction. Until next time, everyone, keep it real.