[BONUS EPISODE] Walking through seasons of pain in ministry

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:00

Foreign. Welcome everyone, to our unfiltered podcast. My name is Lee Stevenson.

I'm the executive director of Church planning with Converge and my co host here, Danny Parmalee.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:17

I'm Danny with Converge Mid America.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:19

And we're just glad that you joined in with us today.

We're going to be talking about, I think, one of those topics that every pastor faces, but oftentimes we don't necessarily have the courage to always talk about it or to admit that we're walking through a season that's a challenge or a season of pain and even what do we do with that? I feel like I have a little bit of a unique perspective in this, Danny, in that I'm a pastor's kid.

I was about 11, 12 years old and I watched my dad burn out. And what that did to me personally and to us as a family will ever be etched in my mind. God used it in a gracious way.

And, you know, I really think it's through his grace and his miraculous work that I didn't just, you know, walk away from the church altogether and say, I'm done with this. And I'm thankful to my parents because I think they helped us see both the positive and the negatives that exist in ministry.

And I am who I am today, partly because of that.

In my conversations with pastors and I think about even my own personal life, I think that there's three levels of crisis that every pastor will face in their lifetime. Church planter or existing pastor.

You're going to face a financial crisis, you're going to face a leadership crisis, and you're going to face a personal crisis. It's kind of like once you go through those three things, like, welcome to the club, buddy, it's going to happen.

Talk to me a little bit about your experience in planting some of the things that were more challenging maybe for you and for your family. And what did the Lord teach you number one, through some of that?

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:03

So I think one of the bigger ones was actually personal. So we had a. I'm still waiting to earn my badge on the financial crisis as far as something happening in the church.

But definitely for the other two have ones that come to mind very quickly.

When I had started the church and planted the church, I decided to do a little bit of real estate on the side, kind of this whole tent making, literally tent making type of thing, and had got into some real estate and I ended up, I owned a 20 unit apartment building and was making money off of it. So that was a great thing. And then the church started to take off a little bit, and so I decided to sell it. And I made money off of selling it.

So I'm thinking, this is awesome. I'm awesome. You know, like cash flow on $1,000 a month, making 20 grand off the sale of the building. And things went pretty well.

And the person that I had sold it to, all of a sudden I saw was on the news because he had illegally removed asbestos from. And he had the residents removing asbestos from the thing. And he said to the news person, I didn't even know there was asbestos in there.

I'm gonna sue the person that sold me this property. And I'm thinking, oh, my goodness. And so I was.

Lee Stephenson: 00:03:37

That's me. Yeah, that's me.

Danny Parmelee: 00:03:39

So. So he ended up going through criminal prosecution for. For what he did. And from jail, he leveraged.

So on my birthday, I was served papers that we were being sued for like two. Some million dollars, like, to over $2 million. Okay.

We didn't have $2 million, so, I mean, it could have been 50 million for all I cared at that point. But it was the weirdest, like, sinking feeling to go, oh, my goodness. And Emily and I had worked so hard. We bought cars with cash.

We did the Dave Ramsey. We had set our. We had diversified and all of this, you know, stuff that we're supposed to do. And we're literally facing bankruptcy at this point.

And my wife, I still remember, she looked at me and she goes, this doesn't mean that they're going to take my bike, does it? And because she had this nice racing bike, I'm like, no, that's not how bankruptcy works. I look it up. No, they take everything. Okay.

So I had to go back to it, like, yeah, yeah, even your. Even your bike. So we're going to give that to your, you know, to your friend.

And so it was so weird because during that time, like, it was the worst thing. And this lasted, I think, five years. It went all the way to the Supreme.

Wisconsin Supreme Court because of just like, it was just this crazy thing about one little checkbox this big and emails and deleted emails and all this, like, you know, stuff that was going on. One of the worst things that has ever happened to me in my life, and one of the best things that has ever happened to me in my life.

God used that challenge in such a way that after about. Maybe about. Maybe six months into it, it took that I was seeing that his hand was in it and that he was. He even use that in generosity.

I'll tell you what? When you're facing bankruptcy, you become really generous. You really do. Like, it was an awesome thing to go, you know what? This isn't mine.

And this could all go away. I might as well give this to missionaries, because if this is just going to go somewhere else, I might as well give it away.

The amount of pride that he chipped away. And then here's the other thing.

If you remember that story about the old theater that, that we had purchased, I guarantee if I didn't learn what I learned about asbestos, I probably would have had a work day. You know, I mean, the amount of things that God protected.

But the big thing was really in the heart, what he was doing in my heart to be truly, fully dependent upon him. Now, what was so hard about that time is because of all of the lawsuit stuff, I couldn't share a lot of this. I couldn't share it from stage.

The people that were suing me, they were. They were trying to link the church into the whole thing. So I couldn't, you know, share even. So it was. It was also kind of a lonely time.

There was only a few people around us that kind of knew that we were. That we were facing this. This type of thing. So. Worst thing that ever happened.

And now Emily and I, as we look back on it, we say it's one of the best things. And it did. It still cost us a lot of money to even defend it through the court. And it ended up ending. Ended up. Okay. We didn't end up.

End up in bankruptcy, but we just had to pay a lot of money to try to just defend the whole case.

Lee Stephenson: 00:07:03

Was there a certain passage in scripture that just the Lord seemed to use in your life during that time period to give you strength and help you endure and maybe you as a family, too.

Danny Parmelee: 00:07:14

Yeah, to be content in all things. Can't take anything with us. So. Yeah, just a contented.

Lee Stephenson: 00:07:21

Yeah, I know for us, part of our story happened about two years into our church plant. And, you know, it's an exciting time, but it's a critical time in the life of your church and for us, everything.

We hit all three of those crisis at the exact same time. So we faced a financial crisis, a personal crisis, and a leadership crisis.

And it's still probably the darkest time in my life and still has ongoing pieces that we're still dealing with today. And in our story, two years old, we just moved from the movie theater into a high school.

The move was only a mile down the street, but we happened to cross to the other side of the freeway. So we went from one corner on one side of the freeway, a mile down the road, and then crossed into a corner on the other side of freeway.

We minimized the fact of what that move would actually do to us as a church. We had good momentum. We felt like we were, you know, everything was going well.

school auditorium that seated: 1300

And then because change, People leave when there's change, even if things are going well. Our numbers decreased. Not necessarily in attendance, but financially, we really dropped down.

And I remember we at the same time began our road through a pretty major kind of health challenge I had gone through to kind of give you perspective. I had six surgeries in a two and a half year period.

And that we began the first wave of that, which cost us $8,000 straight out of our pocket, was not health insurance related. Drained everything we had. I remember driving home after just looking at our recent P and L statement from our church.

I had $600 in my personal bank account. Like, that was it. There was nothing else. And we had $6,000 in our church bank account.

And I had three other people besides myself to make payroll in the next week. And I remember going, God, why did you bring us here two years down the road to shut all this down?

And I don't know if you've ever had one of those moments, but I know for me, like, I. I remember I went to my prayer closet. Like, I had this spot that I could just the Lord and I could connect. And I went there and I let God have it.

You know, I just. Everything that was on my mind, it came out and I just said, God, I know you can handle this. I need this moment.

And it was probably one of the few times in my life where I felt like I heard the audible voice of God and it was two words and it was then leading.

And, you know, it was like, oh, my gosh, like, all right, God, I'm like, now shaken, like I thought I have been, you know, but that was probably the best thing that could ever have been said to me in that moment. And it released me on a different level. I began to preach differently. All that. And the church took off from there at the same time.

So we're now two and a half years in. I now am now facing a major crisis in my left leg.

I went bowling with my staff after being gone in Moab, mountain biking with some friends for a week, collapsed on the bowling alley and they thought I had just torn cartilage in my knee. And we're going to do micro fracture surgery and we'd be good as new. The doctor went in to do surgery, came out of the or.

My wife says his eyes are big as saucers going, I have no idea what your husband did, but I can't do anything. You're going to have to come back a week later. And we got to figure out where we're going to go out of that. I became a national case study.

My doctor flew to Boston where 10 cases were taken by the two top orthopedics in the world. Mine was one of those. And they came up with this game plan, what they were going to do.

At two and a half years into our church plan, I had that surgery, put me three days hospitalized.

By his 12 weeks bedridden, I was hooked up to a passive motion machine which just slowly moves your leg back and forth 12 hours a day for eight weeks. And I can't tell you how boring it is to look at your ceiling for that long. And I preached from a wheelchair for two months.

It was just dumbfounding to me. In a two and a half year church plant, you're going, God, this isn't what I signed up for. And a year later to kind of warp speed things.

A year later we find out the surgery didn't work. I had to walk with a special brace for a whole year. And we start doing some testing.

I get diagnosed with what is called Sonka, spontaneous osteonecrosis of the knee, meaning that the bone is literally dying in my knee. And the doctors warned me that if God doesn't basically intervene and your body heals itself, you're going to lose your left leg.

And I remember it was just devastating. I've got two young kids, I'm pastoring a young church, I can't even teach my daughter to ride a bike. And it was just, it was devastating.

And to throw salt into the wound, we had just moved into a new house. I couldn't do my landscaping. Like, you know, new house needed landscaping, the yard put in. I love doing that kind of stuff.

Being outside, working, I couldn't do it. And I remember I'm looking for leads, landscapers to hire to come put my yard in my subdivisions. Getting on me like, you got to get your yard in.

And so I call this guy, say, hey, would you come out and Give me a quote. You know, never met the guy. Got a referral. He pulls up in a big pickup truck, jumps out of the truck, and he's an amputee. I'm like, God, like.

Like, of all people that would show up to my house right now, that's who you bring. You know, I just. Furious. And I'm like, I'm interviewing amputees at this point. Like, this is where I'm at. Like, I'm like, what leg is that?

You know, because that's the world I was. I was living in. Yeah. And, you know, God taught me so much in that.

That journey is still teaching me on this journey, that our people in our church, they really don't know what it means to suffer well. And God may choose to use us to give them an example practically before them of what suffering well can actually look like. That's a privilege.

The other thing that God taught me through this is really Second Corinthians, chapter one came alive at a totally different level. You know, where it talks about the fact that in our pain, in our trial, God is our comforter so that we can do that for other people as well.

What I realized in this journey, and I hope that any of you that I know that you're experiencing pain, some of it's emotional, some of it's physical, some of it's spiritual. I still live in chronic pain. That's just part of my. My journey at this point. I've been able to keep my left leg, but there are consequences to it.

And what I have come to realize is that without pain, you and I will never experience the comfort of God. Let that just sink in for a moment. I don't know about you. I want to know that part of God. I want to know the comfort of him.

And then, you know, in the midst of that, he is gracious enough to allow me to share that comfort with other people. Incredible. It is really a gift when we begin to look at it and understand it at that level.

What words, Danny, would you have for somebody here that may be walking through one of these seasons? And both from, hey, you're not alone. But what else would you have to share with them?

Danny Parmelee: 00:16:09

Just lead. No, I do think, though, that that to. To be honest with it, you know, I was going to ask you, like, what was it like preaching from the wheelchair?

Do you know what I mean?

Like, were you like, oh, I'm self conscious, or they deserve a better pastor, or were you able to use it in an authentic way and just be like, this is did you use humor? Did you cry? Was, you know, like, what was it? What was it like?

Because even me visioning it in my mind, I'm like, if I came to a church and there's a guy in a wheelchair up there, I just, as, as vain as that is, I might be like, that's weird.

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:43

Yeah. Yeah. You know, honestly, I was on so many pain meds, I don't remember much. I heard it was the best preaching I've ever done.

So I, I mean, I, I was on Vicodin the first time I came back and preached. So honestly, it was, there was part of it, it was humiliating because I've always prided myself. I've been an athlete my whole life.

I raced at a semi professional level with mountain bikes. And here I was sitting in a wheelchair in front of all these people that I loved and going, I'm not the guy that I thought I was.

And it was humiliating. I mean, I literally had to sit with my foot like this the entire time I preached.

I wasn't allowed to bend my knee for, I think, the first 12 weeks unless I was in the passive motion machine. And it was hard. Like my best friends, I mean, one of my friends is sitting in the room right now.

He was the guy that wheeled me out on the stage and he'd wheel me around the church and he'd have to wheel me into the bathroom and it was like, that's enough. Yeah. I mean, hey, we're unfiltered, so let's.

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:57

Put a little filter on that one. Okay.

Lee Stephenson: 00:18:00

But it was humiliating. But this is why it's important too. You got to pay attention to culture.

When I was bedridden, I had one of my elders turned against me and was trying to thwart authority over who I was and the way we were leading the church, I don't know if it was a full on coup attempt, but it was, you know, I'm laying in bed, I can't do anything about it. And I was so thankful that the rest of my elders saw it for what it was and dealt with it and had my back.

But that was the, that was the leadership crisis that we face in the midst of all that as well.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:39

Yeah. So going back to your question though, of the advice, I would say is, first of all, learning to suffer well.

And as you learn to suffer well, you, you do get to, you get to teach that and you get to model that.

And it is, it is such a missing component because that's, you know, that's not your sermon series that you're putting out on a, on a postcard and it's really not something that you can, that you can manufacture, but I think it's such a missing piece. We talk all the time about like, hey, well when you're a Christian and this is going to be awesome.

And it's like you look at Christ's life and it is, you know, follow after me, you know, and he tells us that and we've got it pretty cushy here in America.

And I just think that there is so, so much that you personally can learn and grow in your relationship with God, but it's also stuff that you can share with other people. And the reality is, is that people that are coming to your church, they're going through similar stuff as well too.

And so that was another big piece for me was the empathy. I naturally score pretty low on empathy.

And I'm always thinking, you know, someone has a problem, I'm like, well, God's got a bigger plan or what's the good we can. And it's like, I, I, I didn't say that anymore to people when they came to me. Or my first question was, well, did you do it?

Like, you know, like if someone said, hey, I have someone leveraging a lawsuit against me, my first thing was, well, what did you do wrong? You know, And I'm like, oh, wow, so maybe that doesn't need to be my lead in question.

And just like, yeah, as, as people ask me that and I'm like, wow, that was like the most, you know, offensive, non comforting thing that I could hear at that time.

And so I'm not saying that you can just fictitiously instantly something horrible is happening and be like, okay, you know, slap on a fake smile, but of truly asking God, God, what is it that you are wanting to teach me? I do feel that God was using it as discipline in my life.

I mean, there was pride stuff that was definitely going on in my life that God was using that discipline. I'm so thankful that he chose to discipline me in that way at that time in my life and that age and everything.

And so to even be open to that and to ask them those questions, God, is some of this that you're doing not just teaching me, but is there some discipline that's, that's in there as well?

Lee Stephenson: 00:20:58

That's, that's a great word. I think my encouragement to you all would be be transparent. It's okay for your people to see you hurt. It really, really is.

And your credibility as a leader will just go Up. And I think that's one of the things that God taught me in that season was it's okay when people come and say, how are you doing?

I'm going, I'm not doing well. Pray for us. It was a constant, still is a constant reminder that our battle is not against flesh and blood guys.

What we are doing, it is spiritual in nature and there is a battle going on around us in ways that we don't realize at times. And it's very real and it's a real pain. And it may be emotionally, it may be spiritually, maybe physically. It could be all three.

I had to really wrestle with my identity and who am I in Christ in the midst of this and realize I'm not going to allow this to define me. There's more that God wants to do in this moment and continue as we kind of move forward and people will respond.

Our church grew through that whole process. I was doing a series on Ecclesiastes when all this broke loose. And I'm like, oh. So I'm constantly reminded there's no hope.

All this is kind of going through this. And so it was like, God, your sense of humor is unbelievable. But he did bring comfort in the midst of that.

I want us to pause and let's take some time if there are any questions that people may have and about our stories that we can share and just insight that maybe God brought to us in that process. Yeah. So I think vicariously we live through all of you. You know, it's kind of the role of a grandparent. You put it that. That perspective.

Grandparents, a lot of fun. And so we love.

I know for me, like, I love when pastors will post baptisms and videos and like, I'm like, that's probably the thing I miss the most is knowing the tangible story that you've walked with this person for this past year.

You've seen firsthand what God has done in their life and now you've seen them celebrate this new life and that they're choosing to live a life for Jesus and like that. It's awesome. I miss that.

But at the same time, I know for us, when God called us to move into this role, there's a level of sacrifice that came with that. Who am I to say no to him?

Danny Parmelee: 00:23:53

It'll be my one year anniversary of doing this role this week. And actually Lee and I had lots of conversation before I officially said yes to it. And I kind of asked him some of the same question.

I thought I was pretty prepared for that transition.

It was harder than I thought, especially when my wife and I moved to, you know, moved to Nashville, and we weren't really finding a church that we were connecting with. And so, I mean, even within the first couple weeks, it's like, well, looks like we're going to have to plant one then.

And then when I come to a conference like this, or. I think it was one of the ones that. Was it 101? No, it was transform.

Lee was doing his presentation of, like, here's, you know, the first whatever steps. And I'm like, taking all these notes, like, I can't implement any of this right now, you know, so there's definitely that. There's.

There's a bit of that grieving and loss and. And. And adjustment, but who knows what. What God will do? You know, I think, and I don't want to overspeak for.

For Lee, but if God ever led us in that to. To. To plant again, that. That we would do that. I look for opportunities of how I can support planters now. And I really do see that as.

Lee Stephenson: 00:25:07

As.

Danny Parmelee: 00:25:07

As my role. So.

Lee Stephenson: 00:25:09

Great question.

Speaker C: 00:25:11

So you maybe give an example of. You talked a lot about suffering well, and you talked about some of the personal benefits, but what did you see in your churches from that suffering?

Well, I know for us personally, as we were growing up into ministry and finding our call towards church planting, one of the things we did have, our pastor was going through some very real suffering, and he did it very openly in front of our church, and it grew our church unbelievably. What kind of. Some of the benefits that you saw from maybe being transparent in that, even for your church?

Lee Stephenson: 00:25:47

I don't know necessarily why, but it gave a different level of credibility as a leader. People realize that you've been through hard things and overcome. And so I know that definitely changed.

It grew my empathy as a leader, which naturally changed how the relationship happened between me and the congregation. My preaching changed. I think it got for the better. I could show up to the hospital, and I didn't show up to the hospital much, but.

But when I did show up to the hospital, there was a level of, he gets this. He understands the world that we're living in right now. It may not be the same circumstances, but I could understand loss.

That was another thing that God taught us in all the research and all the conversations we had about losing a limb. The grief that somebody faces when they lose a limb is the same as losing a spouse.

And we walked through it like I literally got to the place emotionally I was like, cut the leg off. Like I'm fine with it. But it took a process to get there.

And so I feel like I understand grief in a different way than I ever knew before this, which again lends itself to. In the way that you care for people that you're with.

Danny Parmelee: 00:27:25

I would say so.

Mine is different in the sense with the specific example I gave because that did not come on the platform until actually everything was resolved with it. And it's hard to go hypothetical, but I just feel like epicos would not be where it's at if God hadn't disciplined me and taught me all those things.

Because that trickle down effect was what was happening behind the scenes. My relationships with staff, my relationship with God, all of those things that were just so radically changed, no one would make that connection.

But I know it on this side of what God did in my life during that time. So.

Speaker D: 00:28:08

Thanks guys for your stories and sharing that. Danny. Appreciate it. I was in court 10 days before our launch and four days before our launch got sued. Everybody should trademark their name.

We got sued for our church name. And so thanks for making me feel like less of an idiot.

Danny Parmelee: 00:28:23

Was it your fault?

Speaker D: 00:28:24

Yeah, I know, right? No, no, no. So when you said that, it's my first question. You just feel like an idiot when you get sued or something anyway.

But I want to talk about pain and marriage with your stories and the tension between letting your wife in. Obviously you want it. You share all life together, but also protecting her and how you navigated that in those. And it's. I just feel like it's.

We were. My wife and I always tell it's like she wants to know, but she doesn't want to know.

And then it's a whole different level when it' people in the church.

So how both with those situations that you walk through and then maybe beyond that and when it's church pain, how have you approached boundaries in your marriage in that way and dealing with that together?

Lee Stephenson: 00:29:05

Great, great question. Do you want to go first?

Danny Parmelee: 00:29:09

Sure, I can. I don't have any real strict guideline of here is what I do share and here is what I don't as far as like a real easy way.

So for me it is a lot of prayer and discernment. But I probably shared less with her even though she is a friend and confidant, especially as I knew that those things would affect her.

In other words, like this is going to affect how she now looks at that person. Or this, she's her husband, the wife of the husband. That I'm talking about now, that messes with that relationship. And we had that.

Even with, you know, deep leadership stuff where she is, like, super good friends with someone who is creating a major problem in the church, you know what I mean? And it's like, I can't tell her that because then that now takes. Would take away from her relationship with the church.

So I leaned at sharing a lot, a lot less with her on things. So really trying to just protect her.

Lee Stephenson: 00:30:10

Our journey was a little different in the fact that when I was walking through this season, I got stripped away from everything. I had no strength, and I had to be dependent on those around me.

I mean, I couldn't get out of bed by myself, let alone bathe myself, make a meal for myself. I couldn't do it. I had to have people come babysit me so my wife could go to the grocery store. I mean, that's humiliating as an adult man, you know?

And so we had to learn to communicate very openly and honest through all of the emotion of that time period. And frankly, I know I wasn't a very nice guy.

Sometimes between being in pain, being on pain meds, like, the normal Lee wasn't always there, and I had to learn to apologize. She had to learn to be able to push back as well and say, you're being a jerk. You know, like, knock it off. I want my husband back.

Part of our journey as well was I didn't share this earlier, was in this process, I started wrestling with some really emotional challenges.

Grief led to other things, and it got to the point where I was like, I had to have a pretty honest conversation with my wife, going, I know I'm not right. Like, there's something going on in my head, and I'm not in a good place. I don't know what that is. And can you help me figure out what we need to do?

And so we came up to an agreement. I'm going to go to the doctor, get some blood work done.

If nothing shows up from there, I'll go to a shrink and we'll begin conversations to try to figure this out. When I went to the doctor, he said, yeah, you have a hormone deficiency, and that's why you feel all the things that you're feeling.

Began to treat me. I instantly snapped out of it and was like, praise the Lord. And then about six months later, I started feeling the same way again.

Went back in, they ran tests again, said, yeah, you're back down. We'll double your dosage. So double my dosage. And Suddenly start feeling good. Fast forward. We move here. We land here. I'm under constant doctor's care.

I'm having to do constant blood work. My doctor goes, I don't like your. Your blood results. Something's wrong. And I'm like, great. That's not what I want to hear.

Like, this has been my journey for three years at this point. Like. And they took me off all medication, and I sp. Spiraled. I mean, just not in a good place now. Now we moved.

We're in a new city on the other side of the country. I left my church. I'm in a new job. You know, it's like, God, what are you doing to us right now? And then I got a call walking into the office.

Doctor says, you're going to an oncologist. You're going to get a brain scan, and we're going to send you a hematologist oncologist to see if you have blood cancer. I was devastated.

And then we went through all those testing, brain scans. They came back negative, going, well, you don't have cancer, but there's something wrong. So we're going to send you another specialist.

We go to another specialist. And within two minutes, he diagnosed what was going on.

And what happened was I was actually mistreated by the doctor back in Phoenix, and his treatment shut my pituitary gland off. And so everything that my pituitary gland controls is now out of whack.

So my wife and I have learned in the midst of these seasons that we have to communicate. We have to be on the same page. She's my greatest warrior. She is. I can't even talk about it. Incredibly strong.

And has been the right person to walk with me through this season.

Danny Parmelee: 00:34:22

All right, well, that is it for unfiltered, real, raw conversations about church planting. And you got the real and the raw right there. So until next time, keep it real. Sa.