Church planting in New England

Lee Stephenson: Welcome, everyone to the Unfiltered podcast. Real conversations about church planting. My name is Lee Stephenson. I'm a local church planter in the Orlando city area and overseer of Converge Church Planting.

Danny Parmelee: I'm Danny Parmelee. And I oversee church planting for Converge MidAmerica and Southeast.

Lee Stephenson: And I'm excited. We've got a special guest with us today. This is Wes Pastor, a church planter, an academic creator there in the Northeast. So, Wes, why don't you tell us where are you at? And we'll kind of go from there.

Wes Pastor: Yes, thanks, Lee. It's good to be on the program today. We are up in the People's Republic of Vermont.

Lee Stephenson: Great way to put it.

eneral Conference Converge in: 1991

Danny Parmelee: And you fell for it.

And launched in September of: 1992

Lee Stephenson: Incredible. What was it for you about Burlington that caught your attention? And said, "Yeah, this is the place that we feel like God is leading us to plant."

Wes Pastor: Well, first New England. And, you know, again, stats need to be taken with somewhat of a grain of salt. But according to all of the stats, Barna, you know, all the guys, New England is the most unchurched area in the country. And it's the closest to post-Christian. So, it's the most Europe-like. It's the most Canada-like. And so, I was attracted by that. I was also attracted by its rich heritage. New England has an extremely rich Christian heritage. I'm a kind of a Jonathan Edwards guy. And I was attracted by the colleges. I got saved when I was a student at Ohio State University. I saw the power of campus ministry. So, we were looking to plant churches in college towns. And Burlington is where the University of Vermont, which is the flagship university in Vermont, is located.

Lee Stephenson: You strike me as a man that likes the challenge. And you stepped up to reach that challenge. I also think it's incredible. Like you spent 30 years at the church you planted. A lot of our church planters that are listening to this are even on those early stages where maybe they haven't even launched the church, let alone know how the future is going to play out. What is one or two pieces of advice that you would give to a new church planter about what it looks like to make it the long haul?

Wes Pastor: So, as to how to make it the long haul? Yeah. First of all, just in terms of why to even have that as a value. Because I do understand you could have different approaches to this. You know, some call it a more apostolic approach, catalyst approach. I think it's the way the Southern Baptists talk about it. One of the reasons I wanted to do it this way is we have five kids. And, you know, in all of our journey, we had moved at one point I calculated we'd move 12 times in 13 years. And so I said to my wife, I said, "Look, whenever it is we decide where we're going, Sweetheart, and we're not moving. Even if it fails, I'll get another job. We're gonna raise our kids in a stable place." And I'm not making a god out of that. But I think it's helpful for passing the happy wife test. And just generally having a relatively stable family. So, that's sort of an advertisement for trying to do that. I think that if you're going to be successful, you have to be willing to be adaptable. Because the church that you plant, in a lot of non-essentials will not be the church you retire from. And I don't particularly consider me a naturally adaptable person. But my wife would be laughing right now. She's like, that's the understatement of the universe. But I'm committed to the principle of adaptation. And so, we've gone through a lot of different phases. And we don't look like we looked like in what I would call the non-essentials. And just being also able to not allow the hits to discourage you. Because if you're going to be in a pastorate for that long... I mean, you know, the Methodists are pretty smart. They just keep, they keep changing. And I was talking to a Methodist leader, and he said, you know, we want them moving because we know problems will happen. So, we'll just start over again. I see it. I don't agree with it. I think well, how did your people ever learn how to work through problems? Because you know, you have a honeymoon stage. Even the initial part, and you know, this, Lee, from planting. Have you planted any? Yeah, you guys both know that it can be a little rough at the beginning. The people you think are loyal, they leave. But usually, that's not too terribly painful. I find it's the 20-year betrayals that really leave you just, you know, gasping for air. So, I think you have to be prepared, that you're going to get hit, you're going to get sucker punched. And you have to recognize this is just New Testament Christianity. And the devil doesn't like successes. And he doesn't like the gospel going forward. He's gonna use methods and means that you could have never even imagined. They don't tell you about this stuff in seminary. I mean, it's just... You got to read it in the New Testament. That's where it is.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. Wes, I have a question for you. When you planted did you have a specific, intentional plan for multiplication? So, a lot of church planters say, "I'm going to plant this church. And then I'm also going to plant you know, five to 10 churches, you know, out of my church." And you've been very successful in multiplication. So, I want you to talk about NETS a little bit. But I want to know if that was part of the plan in the beginning, or if that's something that kind of grew out of whatever.

Wes Pastor: Not only was it a plan to plant churches, it was a plan to start some sort of a church planting school or training center. That was right in the beginning. That is really courtesy of one of my mentors at Dallas Seminary, John Hannah, who had shown how through the various awakenings, especially the first Great Awakening, there was usually a training school that emerged from that, you know. That's how Dartmouth started, for instance. And so, I just had it in my mind, well, we're not having an awakening, but we can still try to set the table and get gospel preachers. And so right from the beginning, we wanted to both plant churches, and we wanted to start some kind of a training center. We weren't exactly sure what that was. But we knew we wanted to do it.

Danny Parmelee: So how quickly did you? And tell us about it. And where it's at today.

ted Christ Redeemer church in: 2000

Danny Parmelee: Right. I was gonna say everything, are total buzzwords, but back then no one was doing that.

e jumped in with both feet in: 2000

Danny Parmelee: So, tell us how it's grown since then.

gest breakthrough happened in: 2014

Lee Stephenson: Which is beautiful.

Wes Pastor: It is a beautiful... that's right. Lee's been up there. It had actually been in receivership for about five years at that point. It had gone bankrupt. The bank owned it. And so, we began pursuing that campus. The elders gave us our blessing, even though they're not responsible for those kinds of decisions. But they're overall responsible for NETS. So, they were excited about it. The board gave us our approval to go after this property. And we negotiated for about a year and a half on the property. Just getting it down, down, down, down. Really helping the bank to face the music. Nobody's gonna want this.

Lee Stephenson: Nobody else is knocking.

Danny Parmelee: Because I mean, that had housing...dorms...

Wes Pastor: Yes. A gymnasium. But they also had a zoning board that said, it can only be used for this very narrow purpose. And it'll take you a year and a half and about $60,000 to get approval even for that. Because it had been grandfathered in. And then they changed...

Danny Parmelee: You were the only real buyers.

Lee Stephenson: That's New England.

price. And we purchased it in: 2016

Danny Parmelee: Phenomenal.

Wes Pastor: We're in the three to five range. Which is a vast improvement over what we were doing. One every couple of years. But we've still got room there to do it. And still keep it a hands-on mentoring apprenticeship program. We're not trying to replicate seminary.

Lee Stephenson: What are you looking for, Wes, when it comes to a good candidate that both fits a church planter or revitalization profile in New England? And also, to be a part of NETS? What are the qualifications? What are you looking for?

Wes Pastor: Yeah, on the, you know, sort of lifestyle side of things, we're looking for guys that are robust, physically. Robust, mentally. We're a little selective. You know, if a couple has issues where they need to be on some sort of special medications. Especially for anxiety or depression. We don't in any way say those folks aren't qualified to be in the ministry. But we just know the strain of New England is probably not in their best interest. And we've had couples really appreciate that we're trying to be very careful and in a kind way. So, we're looking for...we're looking for dudes. They've got to be able to bear weight. And kinda, you know, I think of Marlon. You know. Here's a guy I know. And I'm sure Terri was right there with him. You know, these people are weight-bears, and they're not going to easily get knocked off course. So, we're kind of looking for that. We're looking for folks that are theologically driven. You know, we come from a reformed point of view. So, we're looking for that. Although we're not grinding any axes about any of that. You know, one of our guys calls it "Calvinism with a smile." And I think that's appropriate, because a lot of times, those guys are not very, they're not very friendly. Yeah, and so we want most of all, that they see the gospel as a central thing. That they're committed to telling people that they're sinners. They need a Savior. Jesus Christ is the only Savior. The only name under Heaven, which by, we can be saved. And that they're not going to depart from that script. And they're going to recognize that they're going to need to be leaders. That's going to be hard at times. And they need to come up to New England and die. That's what we say, if you're, if you're going to be a part of NETS, we're expecting you to come up here and die. If that's not what you want to do, there are a lot of other options. And we wish you the best. But we're not going to go there. That doesn't mean everybody does. But that's the commitment we're asking them to have. And we want their wives to be right there with them. Not just well, this is what my husband wants to do. We say that's not gonna work. It isn't gonna work. You can do that in a regular church pastorate in a lot of places but not church planting in New England.

Danny Parmelee: A lot of times, I think people would think they have to be from the Northeast in order to be effective. But you were sharing yesterday at dinner that you do have people that aren't originally from there, that, you know, joined the program. And you know, I've talked to you know, some of the, you know, the planters and revitalizers you had come through have just a great experience. What does that experience look like? And can they be from, you know, anywhere?

Wes Pastor: What does the experience of someone from the South planting in the North imply? Or being at NETS?

Danny Parmelee:Actually both. Being at NETS.

Wes Pastor: Yeah, it's not a requirement at all. And, you know, New England is so liberal, that they're pretty accepting. You know, they really are pretty accepting. I'm amazed at how open- minded they are. They're not discerning. But they're very open-minded.

Lee Stephenson: That's a good way to put it.

Wes Pastor: And so, no, we've got a number of guys. I mean, a lot of the seminaries are in the South that I recruit from, so you're getting southern folk. The guy that took my place is from South Georgia. Now, he was so missionally minded, that he taught himself not to have a Georgia accent. You would never know he's from Georgia. Now, you talk to his wife, you know.

Lee Stephenson: It comes out.

Danny Parmelee: I met him because he went through assessment.

Wes Pastor: Oh, that's right down in San Antonio or down in Denton, Texas. Yeah, that's right. Am I right? You couldn't tell, could you? And, you know, he was in journalism, and he was a sports announcer, so he had a lot of chances to perfect it. But you would never know except he's an Atlanta Braves fan. And he loves the Georgia Bulldogs. He went to Georgia. He named his firstborn, Georgia. Subtle hints.

Danny Parmelee: But what does the experience look like? So, and this is literally a free commercial opportunity. There's a listener out there right now. Lee and I get the commission on this if they sign up for NETS. But if someone says, hey, what does that actually look like to be part of NETS. And to be... What happens during that time? How long is it? And then when they're sent out?

Wes Pastor: Yes. Well, maybe from the downside, let's just get the bad news out of the way first. They're probably going to be busier than they ever were in the church that they attended. We're pretty high octane. We have a lot of outreach ministries, and we expect them to be at everything. Now part of that is a conditioning drill. Because we know they're going to have to step up. So, the typical reaction we get, especially from a southern culture person who might have a little more of a laid back orientation is that this is really busy. Or this is really intense. But they adapt. They get used to that. The other what could be viewed as bad news. Actually, the couples end up viewing it as pretty good news is we're going to drill down pretty deeply into their married lives. And because we know if they go out there, and those marriages aren't humming, you know. That they can work through problems quickly, satisfactorily, mutually satisfactorily. They're going to be in trouble. Because it's the stress of it is going to bring out the weaknesses. And so sometimes it can get a little uncomfortable when we start drilling down. And because we're usually drilling down into their spiritual lives. That's really what it is. And it's just manifesting itself, in marriage and family issues. Those are kind of the hard parts. I think the parts that they actually really enjoy and spend, most of the time doing, we have a big couple’s aspect to it. And once they get over the exposure issue, they really end up giving real high marks on how helpful it is for their marriages. So, we're spending time with them individually. We spend regular time with the couples. We spend time with them individually as a couple. And just working through all sorts of things. We have a curriculum that we go through with marriage and family matters. And then the guys... We're pounding the guys on studying texts, preparing exegetical homiletical outlines, preparing 45-minute sermon manuscripts. Now, they don't have to do that when they get out. But we're trying to develop some disciplines and help them to really figure out what it looks like to be preaching every week. So, even if they're not preaching, we try to get them preaching once a month at a church. But even if they're not preaching, they're still preparing sermons. Because to just suddenly become the senior pastor, when you did two 15-minute sermonettes in seminary, it's a big jump. And you're just not conditioned to be doing that kind of prep every week. So we're trying to work that muscle and get it. It's still not going to be conditioned, but it's going to be more conditioned than they would have been otherwise.

Lee Stephenson: Now is the whole process - is it six months, one year, two-year kind of process?

Wes Pastor: The immediate, intensive is nine months. And from that nine-month scenario, there's three or four options they can choose. One, some have decided they don't think they should go into ministry. And we're giving them our own evaluations. They're coming to an assessment center like this. They're getting that evaluation. We put all that together, we make an end of the year evaluation. And sometimes they've already concluded, we don't think we're suited for ministry. They might take a position just at an established church that's relatively healthy, at maybe in New England, maybe not. They don't have to agree to stay in New England, just for this nine-month intensive. That's the second option. The third option is to go into a church revitalization. And there's a spectrum there, some of those are really fairly healthy. They just don't have any young people. So, the older folk want to get a young pastor thinking that that'll enable them to recruit. Which is true. We've seen that happen several times. So, that's a third option. The fourth option is to church plant. If they decide to do that, and they want to do that with NETS, they have to stay on for another 18 to 24 months for our residency program. And there, we have them signed in blood.

Lee Stephenson: You're all in.

Wes Pastor: You're all in. If you can't say you're planning to stay in New England, we'll try to get you affiliated with somebody else. That's right. And happily. But if you want to be with NETS which includes...

Danny Parmelee: I'll take your leftovers.

Wes Pastor: Which includes all of the funding that NETS does. We have our own graphic designer. We have our own videographer. We have our own editor. We produce... Our materials look a lot better than NETS actually is. And we're better on paper.

Lee Stephenson: There went that commercial.

Wes Pastor: There went that commerical, that's right.

Danny Parmelee: I told him to sell it. You're gonna have a long days, hard hours. I'm like, wow, Wes. Way to sell that.

Wes Pastor: But the good news is for the nine-month intensive, it's free housing. Free utilities. We give them $1,000 a month. , we're really taking care of them. We're investing. Their insurance, we have a self-insurance pool, so they'll never pay more than $3,000 on their deductible. Because they all come up and have babies.

Lee Stephenson: You're not keeping them busy enough.

d a new church building since: 1959

Lee Stephenson: Wow.

Wes Pastor: And they bought property that was zoned correctly. There's no issues. They went through the planning commission. No issues. They said they could build a building that seats 600 people. Their church already is getting 400.

Lee Stephenson: Wow.

Wes Pastor: Which is great for New England. Then they went to the zoning board and zoning board said, "You can't do a number of things." All of which are now being challenged in court. And we are helping them fundraise for all of those costs. And we've raised a lot of money. 20 years after planting. So our motto is for the life of the church. So, we're behind you, and we're going to help you. We want you to be denominationally active. It's one of the best Converge churches in the Northeast, this church I'm talking about. Yeah, you know Don. But we're behind you. And so, there's some real nice perks. It's a long-term relationship.

Lee Stephenson: Wes, I really appreciate you taking the time to share both your heartbeat. It's contagious, your passion for New England to come and understand the truth of the gospel. And so, we appreciate what you're doing.

Wes Pastor: Thanks for having me.

Lee Stephenson: I appreciate you pouring into all the planters and churches in the area.

Wes Pastor: Thank you very much, Lee.

Lee Stephenson: It's a blessing. So, thanks for tuning in, everyone. This has been the Unfiltered podcast. Just real conversations about church and church planting. Thanks for tuning in.