Parenting as a planter

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:09

Welcome to the Unfiltered Podcast. My name is Lee Stevenson. I have the joy and privilege of serving the Converge movement as the executive director of Church Planting.

My co host here say hey Danny.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:19

I'm Danny Parmele and I oversee church planning for Converge Mid America. And this is going to be a fun one.

We're going to talk about kind of parenting and I think this is going to be fun because Lee, you have some expert wisdom because you were a pastor's kid. So I'm, you know, I don't know who's all going to listen to this, but we said it's unfiltered.

So I need you to share some of your experience of when you were younger, of what your parents did that made that allowed you to a survive being a Christian. You know, you hear about, it's like, oh, pastor's kids, you know, they all, all go wayward.

And then number two on top of that, that you actually did ministry. So your parents must have at least, you know, on the whole scale of things, they did some things right.

But also just to explain what it's like to be a pastor's kid for those that are, are church planners, they've got kids and maybe some things that they could avoid.

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:17

Yeah, I, I, this is something I'm passionate about and eager to, to talk through because I do think it's a question a lot of people in ministry question, what is this going to do to my kids? I know I've talked to a lot of church planters as well about are my kids going to survive the church plant.

My wife and I are both examples of yes, you can survive through ministry as a pastor's kid. Both my wife and I were pastor's kids. My wife's father actually planted two churches as she was growing up.

We tell everybody we are the James Dobson nightmare. You know, we're both firstborns and we're both pastor kids, so we have an interesting marriage, but we have, we have a lot of fun.

My parents journey through ministry wasn't without a lot of pain. I'm the oldest of three. I can remember it. You know, we, my dad started in senior pastorate ministry at the age of 23.

He'd only been a Christian basically six years and took over a church in East Peoria, Illinois. Lasted there about five years and it was a really hard, challenging church.

We moved to kind of a small town, Kentucky, where he pastored another small church there and kind of a more rural setting. And then they kind of hit the wall where they Just my dad just burned out for a lot of different reasons.

And so I saw, you know, where I was kind of the prince of the church and enjoyed being known. Everybody knew who I was. There was joys in that. But then I saw the.

The ugly side as well, of watching how my parents, in a way, this may be strong language, got a little bit devoured by the local church and walked out of pastoral ministry. They've been in ministry situations their entire life, but never in the same context.

And it could have easily been one of those things in my life, Danny, where I just said, I'm done. I don't want to be part of the church. It's too much pain. It's ugly, but full of hypocrites, and just walked away.

And I honestly credit my parents with the reason of who I am today and even my. My desire, my passion for the local church.

And I think it comes down to a couple things that I encourage pastors to include in your life when it comes to how you interact with your kids as they're growing up in ministry. One is allow them to see both the good and the ugly.

They don't need to know all the details, but it is healthy for them to understand the church is full of people and people are sinners, and all of us are in need of God's work in our lives.

And I think my parents did a masterful job of raising us through those young years of church, having a good, healthy understanding of the church, what it takes. There's demands on all of us, but it can be a fun thing if you allow it to be a fun thing. And they really did make it fun for us.

But at the same time, we saw behind the curtain in a way that they exposed us to just enough of the dilemma, but also shared their heart of why they love the church. And that molded all of us over the years of having a desire and a passion for the church.

And then I think the second thing is they included us in major family decisions, but they also brought us into some of the decisions that were going on around the church world as well and say, hey, this is what we're thinking is going on. We need to pray about this. Would you pray with us?

And they taught us how to go to God in both the good moments in the life of the church, but also in those challenging moments in the. In the life of the church, which is a great gift, you know, to any child. And those.

How those practices have now carried over to my own kids, you know, when we decided to move From Arizona to Florida, it was a family decision.

We sat down with our kids, we talked to them about what we, God was doing in our lives, what God was maybe calling us to do, what they thought about that. We prayed together as a family and then they helped make the move and we gave them opportunities to help pick the church.

And when we decided to plant again, we asked them, you know, what do you think about this? Would you be excited about this? What would you want to do in the life of that church? Where would you want to serve?

And, and not mandating those things, but giving them a voice into the process as a whole.

Danny Parmelee: 00:05:55

Can you give some very practical, whether it was hypothet, medical or actually from your experience, like give a. Here, here's the ugly part of church.

This is what's happening and then how your parents communicated that to you or hypothetically how you would like, hey, if this is kind of the situation that's going on in church, here's what you share with them. But here's kind of, here's the limit. Because I always would have assumed that the best thing is like only show them the good parts of church.

Like don't let them know that, you know, there's a division in the elder board or whatever or you know, that there's a fight amongst the staff person, this person's getting fired, like what is the stuff that you share? How do you kind of share that?

And then what's kind of the limit, you know, to they don't need, they don't need any more details or this could be detrimental because they're going to go whisper to their other friend and, and situation worse.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:49

I think it has to be age appropriate. And so you know, you don't pull your five year old aside and say, hey, this person doesn't like daddy and this is why.

And you know, but you do have to kind of keep it within that context and.

But I think it is, you know, I think through my life journey some of those conversations happen even as teenagers reflecting upon what happened when I was a child and I didn't know all the context behind it. But then as I aged, my parents gave me more context and fill in the gaps and that just broadened my perspective.

And so no, it could be a little nugget here, but as they age you slowly allow them to gain a better understanding of all the different workings. You know, for instance, I think of one of the things the elder board and the first church my dad pastored in was a pain.

I mean, I don't know how else to put it, but they were just a royal pain. And my parents never allowed us to see the disunity that actually existed.

I remember us still going over to elders houses and having dinner and conversations, and they made it fun for us. And so there was a healthy respect for the leadership of the church. But I knew that there was some level of unhealth there.

But later on, I remember my dad telling me there was a year in ministry where I helped lead 60 people to Jesus. And my elder board came to me and said, you need to stop that because we don't want those type of people in the life of our church.

And to me, as a teenager when I heard that, I'm like, are you kidding me? There was a holy discontent as a teenager that was already rising up within me towards what health looks like in a church leadership standpoint.

And my parents really did a masterful job of just slowly navigating us through some of those things.

I remember when the burnout hit its peak and it was time to transition, my parents sitting us down and having that conversation, it was hard, but saying, dad's tired and it's time for him to take a different type of position. We don't know what that's going to be. We don't know what that's going to look like, but life's going to be different.

We're going to have to find a new church. We're going to have to say goodbye to some of our friends.

But they're kind of keeping us engaged and helping us understand that they were going to be stable for us in the midst of those changes was huge because you trust your parents. And so it's okay for our parents to admit that, you know, it's okay for us as pastors and as parents to admit, I don't have it all figured out.

We're trusting God. We're walking by faith. He's. He's shown his faithfulness to us in this, this, this.

There's been moments where we didn't know we were going to pay this bill, and all of a sudden, money showed up. I saw that my parents allowed us to see that growing up. Those things shaped our faith as we grew older.

And willingness to trust God and take big risks at times as well, that's great.

Danny Parmelee: 00:10:11

Okay, so as long as we're going unfiltered here. Bad day at work for you, Lee? Things are, whether it be the plant or Converge ministry, just a hard day. You come home, what does that look like?

Or even if you don't say anything. Your kids are like, something's wrong. How do you. How do you handle that?

Lee Stephenson: 00:10:35

I always tell my wife first, and we'll have a moment of kind of processing. And so sometimes it'll be, hey, hey, mom and dad need to have a conversation. You know, love you guys. Give them a hug. We'll be out in a minute.

You know, Melissa and I will talk it through, kind of come up with a game plan, pray it through. And then sometimes it's coming and say, hey, you know, there's some hard things that are going on at the church.

You know, there's so and so or so and so. They're unhappy about this in the life of the church, and they may end up leaving, we don't know. But sometimes that's a. God does this.

And God brings people in seasons in the life of our church, and then he takes them on to other churches. And we've got to trust God. And even it may be hard, but let's take a moment and let's pray for them and let's pray for the church.

And bringing the kids into some of those situations seems to be helpful for them to understand that this is so much bigger than us and it's bigger than them and that God is doing a unique work. Then you gotta allow them to see the celebration moments as well. Yes and yes.

Danny Parmelee: 00:11:40

What's the fun stuff?

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:41

Let them see the fun stuff. There are. There are benefits to being the pastor's kid. I mean, I. I've taken my kids into the. This.

The auditorium and let them fly their drones around. You know, it's like, not. There aren't other kids that get that kind of opportunity, guys. And so allowing them to see some of the benefits of that.

You know, we've gone into church sometimes on a random night and pop the video, you know, a movie on and sit in the auditorium and video games.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:10

On an LED screen, right?

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:12

Yeah. Well, I haven't done that. That's a little technically challenging. But, you know, throwing a DVD in or something of that sort isn't. Isn't a bad thing.

So allow them to see that there are some benefits and perks that they have because they are the pastor skittises as well. And even with the Converge shop, I think some of my greatest moments, and I didn't encourage any pastor this.

When I've had a speaking engagement or I've gone somewhere, ask them to send a note back to your kid, maybe even a gift card saying, hey, thanks so much for sharing your dad with us this past weekend. Here's $20 to McDonald's. Why don't you take your dad out for lunch?

Sometimes like those moments in the life of my kids, they love it and it gives them such a positive view of ministry and what ministry can be that they fall in love with it versus resenting the fact that dad's been demanding and going here and going there.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:14

Yeah, yeah, that's for me too. When I do travel, the opportunity to bring my 10 year old with me is huge. She loves hotel sleeping over, extra pool time.

We were at a green room that she has been talking about all summer that just was loaded with snacks and soda, which she doesn't get all of that soda even at her house. Or she thought this was like the best church in the world. And then honestly, even sharing honorarium stuff with him. Like, hey, you know what?

You know, we were, we were given a little extra because we, you know, spent a little extra time and shared God's word. So you get to choose, you know, where. Where are we going now? She picked Popeyes, you know, so you're.

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:53

Doing something right, man.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:55

That was the splurge, you know, it wasn't stakes. We're going out for steaks.

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:59

You have an introduced her to melting pot yet?

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:01

Yeah, no, and I'm not going to either, so. And she wants Popeyes chicken at her wedding.

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:07

Popeyes and a Coke. She's. She's happy.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:09

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, she wants Popeyes chicken for her wedding. So I literally reported her saying that that's what she wanted.

So we'll see if that sticks later on in life. But yeah, just including them in the fun stuff and the celebration and feeling like, you know, they get to share in some of that honor as well as.

As a pastor without it going to their head. I know they call, you know, pastoral privilege. Pastoral dad privilege.

We had a, A time where we were doing this outreach in the city and our church was hosting it and you had to have tickets to get on this like, bounce house and ride thing that. And my daughter went up, said, don't worry, my dad's the pastor. It's like, doesn't work like that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:48

Okay.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:48

You can't just say my dad's a pastor for everything and just assume you're.

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:51

Gonna get to cut to the front.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:53

Of the line, to cut through the front of the line and go on rides for free. But yeah, I, I agree. Being able to just include them and have fun and. And you know, there's times too, and maybe this is controversial.

I'd love for you to Speak to this.

But if I sense that my family really does need a time away on a Sunday, that, that it's okay that they actually don't show up to church and, and yes, they're not at home vomiting and, and that's not just say they can just go whenever they want, but there's some time to just be like, you know what your, you might need, you might need a break this week.

Lee Stephenson: 00:15:27

So yeah, yeah, I think that's totally doable. You know, the perfect world would be our kids and our spouse would want to be at church every single waking hour and serving.

That's just our reality and it's not necessarily healthy for any of us, including ourselves as maybe the lead pastor in a church plan. We need time away. We need time to recoup and, and to be recharged because it is draining.

And find ways to keep your spouse and keep your children encouraged on the journey that church planning can be. And you know, I, my even in this current church plant, my son is.

We've been out of town over the last five weeks for an adoption process that got drawn out a lot of different other things. But my son was disappointed. He has missed so much church and he just wants to go and serve in the elementary classroom.

And I think that that's such a gift. I want to try to encourage that as much as I possibly can.

At the same time, we've got to guard our kids from people in the church that demand higher expectations of them just because they're the pastor's kid. And so those are the moments I become the most defensive of my kids is if I catch wind that somebody is playing that card on my kids.

Let them be kids. That's the most important aspect. They're not perfect and they're not called to be the pastor of this church. Right.

And so I need you to just allow them to have some space to grow up and be who they are.

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:02

Yeah. And I think as pastors as well too is to be very careful ever to connect their behavior in your position too much. So very much avoiding the like.

Don't do that.

Don't you know what a reflection that will be on my position or reflection on the church because then they're just tying your position and instead of making it. We don't do that because Jesus doesn't want us to. Instead of, you know, like you shouldn't.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:29

Do that because it's performance based versus grace based.

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:34

Well said. This has been a great conversation and thank you all for tuning in the unfiltered podcast for those that are parents church planning.

Enjoy the journey with your kids. Have fun. Make the most of it. Till next time, y'all, keep it real.