The new rules of engagement

Lee Stephenson: Everyone, welcome to the Unfiltered podcast. Lee Stephenson here, Executive Director of church planting with Converge.

Danny Parmelee: I'm Danny Parmelee and I oversee church planting for Converge MidAmerica.

Lee Stephenson: And we're just having fun in this COVID season right Danny?

Danny Parmelee: Fun is the word.

Lee Stephenson: Not really. So I'm ready for this to go away. But I think one of the unique things that we've seen happen around the nation I would say probably worldwide is just church engagement. You know, Barna, I think it was just even last week came out with new statistics when it came about engagement that a third of regular church attenders have stopped engaging with the church, both via online engagement but in person engagement. That's a major challenge to pastors and church leaders in this this season. What are you seeing? What are you sensing when it comes to just overall church engagement right now?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, I think when it when the pandemic first started, there was probably I think I've used this word before, but there was almost this initial novelty of there being a little bit of a shake up. And people were really excited to do you know, online services and have coffee and you know, eat bacon and eggs and watch their pastor and chat with their friends. I kind of liken it to those big snowstorms, where, you know, schools cancel everything, you know, there's kind of a fun element to it. And then that wore off pretty quickly. And people started skipping because there is, I mean, there, let's be honest, there's no accountability and you know, not that we just go to church out of accountability or discipline, but when you even just remove that a little bit, it's just really easy to skip here or to skip there. And then when you have kind of the monotony of everyday life, and I just think that's where we're at and I think that's what Barna obviously, in the research has showed that people started just kind of peeling away from that. And then when there's not a tangible thing, you know, I was on the guest experience team at the church that I serve. And, you know, there's only so much that you can do as far as online engagement. So I am I'm kind of like less needed now. Now, of course, that can just change and I can have another job. Now my job is, you know, interacting guest experience with people online. I know it can shift but it does. It just feels different. There's only there's less church work to, to kind of do now. I do feel that the upside to this is that it is going to reimagine a bit of what engagement looks like whereas before engaging the church meant serve on this Sunday team. So this is where I think we're going to start to see some ingenuity and some creativity to to change that. How about you?

Lee Stephenson: Yeah, we've seen similar stuff I mean it early on are even just online engagements like our views and things of that sort were through the roof. We felt great momentum giving was actually ticking up. Then summer hit and just as a normal summer things change and things dip and giving started to drop and overall engagements dropped significantly. And I know that that's not just for us as I've talked with pastors around the country, that seems to be kind of the normal routine right now. And so if you're feeling bummed out there as you listen to this, that your engagements are down Hey, just Welcome to the club.

Danny Parmelee: Join the club.

Lee Stephenson: Yeah, you and every church in America right now. But I do think I think you're right in talking about there's just not the same kind of accountability. There's something powerful that when you miss a Sunday, and you know, John's going to give you a call going, Hey, where are you, man? That you'll probably be back in church the next week, you know, because you miss that face to face interaction, that relationship. We've also seen it very difficult in this season to even get people to engage personally from a social media standpoint. You know it. So during the service times, we've noticed like the comments have probably dipped in half from where they were early on. And I think people are just worn out with content. They're worn out with the dialogue and even the fake packaged questions. You know, a lot we can be. We can wear it out where it's like every week, the host says, hey, what kind of coffee are you drinking toay, or where are you watching from? The first three weeks that's fun. By the 10th or 12th week, you're worn out answering the same question and I so I do think that we have to become more innovative. We got to be more creative on how we define engagement, how we look at engagement, how we count engagement. And I think you're right that this is a season in which we can change the rules of engagement. And which brings me to the big question is like, if you're going to change the rules of engagement, you've got to answer two key questions. What are we going to change? And how are we going to change it? So thinking through like moving into the fall, school semi normal, you know, how should we look at engagement via social media via discipleship? What's realistic? And I think that's the bigger question I have is what's realistic when it comes to expectations on engagement?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, well, I think um, well, first of all, you know, slight confession for me is it's interesting being a congregation member now and not a lead pastor, which I thank God for right now as I watch you guys just try to navigate all of this stuff. And so in some ways, I have a little bit of a perspective where it's like, I know what it's like to be the congregation member, the family member and to watch my own engagement and participation dip off. And I remember having this conversation with my pastor and saying, like, I know you think that everybody's watching on Sunday, at the exact same time, and they care about the chat, but they don't because that's even me in where it's like, Okay, well, I've got my kids right in here, and it's easier for me to watch, you know, Sunday afternoon or Monday even. And my wife's doing it while she is on a run. And, you know, we're so we're doing it at different times, because the the chat itself wasn't actually true engagement. It didn't really, it didn't have a lot besides, you know, maybe a little bit of fun in the beginning, you know, seeing friends and everybody online.

Lee Stephenson: I think it's the plus side but also the downside of on demand services. I can't tell you how many times I heard somebody like, Sunday mornings just hard for us right now. So we watch about seven o'clock at night.

Danny Parmelee: And you're like, wait, how is it hard for you? What are you doing Sunday mornings? I mean, there's no restaurants even open like what is hard for you?

Lee Stephenson: Exactly. Before that they were fine to get dressed and get the kids to church.

Danny Parmelee: Right, but I am just telling you, Lee, as a pastor, that I'm in that same boat and have said the exact same thing. So you can, you know, whatever, judge me if you want. It's just the reality of it. But when you said hey, going into fall, and when I said before that I think there's a great opportunity here. This is where if pastors can see engagement that is not even just around the Sunday service or the online delivery or the social. So if you're able to, and I've seen some church plants that have mobilized their people, to engage in community nonprofits, outreaches events, schools, whatever it is. That is true church engagement when you are the hands and feet of Jesus in the community, whether that's providing food, I think you had mentioned before, I couldn't remember exactly what it was, but just different ways in which, yeah, I think you said something. Now I'm totally forgetting cuz it was like two two episodes ago where you're saying for them to engage within the community raking lawns, doing whatever you can to just be out there. And that's hard because, again, as pastors, we love to say, here's the numbers. Here's how many volunteers here's how many, you know, it's just it's easier if we can just count it and it's right there in front of us.

Lee Stephenson: Yeah, yeah. And and the reality is, this is a time it's requiring us to be dirty, like, Well, we've got to get our hands dirty, and we've got to get involved in people's lives and the more involved you get in people's lives, the messier it is. And so I think the biggest challenge right now for pastors that, you know, ministry being so virtually driven in this season is, do you actually know what your views mean? Do you know, who those are connecting with you why they're connecting with you? And so, you've got to think through some strategies and opportunity, how do you maximize and understand who you're actually reaching?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. What do you guys do as far as, um, if you do track any of that, so in other words, not just like the number but of do you ask people to fill out a virtual comment card, you know, are you screenshotting you know, participants and then it's a whole different thing when you have the different watch parties that you know, there's not a central place to kind of do that counting and, you know, accountability of who's there. How are you guys doing that?

Lee Stephenson: Yeah. As best as we can, and I still wouldn't say we're good at it, but I think a couple practical things like when you see somebody share something that you do on social media, whether or not it's a video or even a post, you as a church should go in and thank them for that. And so celebrate the fact that they're trying in this season to get the word out and to be an encouragement and to share what you're doing as a church. And I think that just adds value to people beyond you, you know, reaching their direct community. We are beginning to slowly build targeted marketing of some of the key things we do as a church whether or not it'd be a Sunday service, viewing party, those type of things. We're trying to expand and take as much ground as we possibly can during this season knowing there are people out there that are hungry, there are people that are looking. Let's take advantage of this and you know, Like the the challenge for us is, I mean, we're in a state of 20 million plus people. But church attendance doesn't reflect even close to that. And so it's going, the harvest is plentiful. And so we've got to figure out how to continue to harvest what God has put in front of us and go beyond that.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. What do you think are some of the pitfalls, downfalls of some of the virtual, the online services? I know that we all have to do it right now, but I'm saying that you're seeing from just an engagement level.

Lee Stephenson: I think one is just screen fatigue. I think people are just tired of, you know, people don't want TV experience church for the most part. They do want the in person connection. There's energy when you get a group of people in a room singing together, and I do think that that makes it more challenging for overall engagement. I do think too the better we get at creating digital reach, the more problems it also creates for us. And so we've got to think about how do we do discipleship in this, this digital world, where the way that we've done it traditionally, probably's not the way for us to do it in the near future, and at the same time zoom, it, you know, it's going to fall short, even in the discipleship process.

Danny Parmelee: When you say difficulties in as the reach expands. What do you mean by that practically? So in other words, someone from Georgia stumbles upon your site is what you're talking about stumbles upon your thing, and now they're like, well, this is great. I used to go to this guy's church named Andy Stanley, but I'd much rather listen to this Lee guy. Yeah,

Lee Stephenson: Yeah. Well, since Andy's not doing any in person services, right?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, that's true, right?

Lee Stephenson: I do think you do have to have a new strategy when it comes to what are we okay with putting resources towards and what are we not? Resources are still limited. Do you see yourself making disciples just of those that are in your community? Or do you see yourself making virtual disciples all across the world? That could be a new reality if you decide to play your cards a certain way. But I think these are decisions that are going to have to be made because it does alter the purpose behind the church. It alters how you're going to accomplish the mission and the strategy, how you're going to allocate funds. You know, if we were able to increase our engagement online beyond what our engagement in person would have been? Are they engaging us, you know, are they giving or are they just simply watching a TV show? Are they looking for ways to share with their experiences with others in their community? Are they inviting? Could it be something that, you know, eventually you have a micro church experience? So you have a group of 15 or 20 people in another state that are all convening and watching and participating. They feel just as much a part of your church as this group of people that are in your community. If that's the case, what do we do? How do we support them? Do we allocate staff time towards that? Those are all challenging questions that I think virtually we've got to answer when it comes to the virtual church.

Danny Parmelee: Well, I was hoping you were gonna answer those right now. That's why I asked the question.

Lee Stephenson: Well, the way I'd answer it may be totally different than what another person feels to that. In my mind the answer is always yes. You just figure out a way. If God's opened a door, we've got to figure out a way to be faithful with what God's brought to us.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, in my, you know, as I've been thinking through this, the downside is, if people are joining virtual churches based just on a kind of consumeristic mindset, obviously there's that danger that so whoever has, you know, the best production, the best show might not be the best preaching, vision, whatever. But hey, that's just what you know what I'm going to do. And then to the same question of discipleship, how does that actually equate to discipleship? Like, can you be discipled? Or is it the best to be discipled if you really have no one in person, and how do you do it? And again, I don't have the answers for it. But just knowing that that's the direction that it's going right now. I mean, clearly, people aren't just saying, I'm going to church that's down the street, which obviously there was that shift. At one time, it was like, Hey, you go to the church that you can walk to and then all of a sudden you have an automobile. Like what you're going to drive to, you're going to pass two churches to go to another church anathema. Like, how dare you do that? And I guess we're going to kind of be in that in the digital world as well, too. Like, why would I? Why does it matter if I'm watching my digital church that's in the same city? Or if I'm watching a digital church that might even be on a completely different continent?

Lee Stephenson: Yeah. And I think the perspective has to be focused in on Danny, how are you? What are you doing to create conversation? It's not about just content development. Like there is plenty of content out there. It is more about how are we actually moving people? Are we creating conversations that are moving people further in their discipleship pathway? And that's, I think that's the bigger thing that the church has to focus in on not just developing content for the sake of content. Well, great, great, fun conversation on just church engagement. We'd love to hear even from you all out there. our listeners, what are you seeing, what are you sensing when it comes to church engagement? Let us know via social media or just send us a personal email as well. And what are you learning when it comes to COVID and church and virtual church engagement? This has been the Unfiltered podcast. Until next time, keep it real.