Assessing your call to ministry

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:08

Welcome to our unfiltered podcast. My name is Lee Stevenson. I have the privilege of serving Converge as the executive director of church planting and my co host here.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:16

I'm Danny Parmele and I oversee church planning for Converge Mid America.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:20

And Danny's got a cold, so he's really working on that sexy voice today.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:25

So we're got the nice broadcasting voice.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:27

Totally does. Totally does. Well, we have a special guest with us today. This is Marlon. Minx is with us, so say hi real quick. Marlon.

Marlan Mincks: 00:00:34

Hello. Glad to be here.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:36

So Marlon is a church planter, works with many districts in church planting. But one of his greatest legacies in Converge is helping with and overseeing directing our assessment center process.

And so we're going to take a little bit of time today, Marlon, just talk about assessment and why it's important, what you've seen. And I'd love for you to just kind of begin and talk about the roots of Assessment center as a whole and how has it changed?

How have you seen it change over the years that you've been involved with it as well?

Marlan Mincks: 00:01:05

Yeah, well, you know, the roots of our assessment center here run pretty deep, and over the years, it's made some significant changes, and then some things have not changed. I think one of the things that's really been standard is how we look at candidates, and we look at them based around the 16 building blocks.

These are skill sets that we believe specifically that a church planner needs if he's going to be successful for the long haul.

I think it's common that a lot of people try to start things only to find out the different stages of starting something have different skills that are necessary. Maybe they can't hand it off. Maybe they can't move into the transition where they have employees.

These building blocks really give us a look at whether or not they have the ability to really follow it through to fruition, build the church, organize around it, and really have a great setting that people can find Christ in.

Danny Parmelee: 00:01:55

Marlon, I think that one of the things that I've heard people say is that assessment centers are like boot camps or like, you go and you just kind of put someone through a ringer, almost like an initiation process.

I know that's not the case, but I want you to respond to that, because I think that's something that I'm hearing over and over as I invite potential planners. Like, hey, you want to go to Sesame? No, I don't want to go. I've heard what that's all about.

Marlan Mincks: 00:02:16

Yeah, yeah. You know, there seems to be a story out there that it is that. And I know that when I went through it, I thought the same thing.

I thought, man, I hope I survived this. But I think this is true.

I don't know anyone who's not come through it, who didn't say, you know what, this moment in my life, this has made a difference. In fact, it did for me. I can look back to my ministry and say right there, that assessment in Phoenix, Arizona, that was a game changer.

In fact, that's why I'm in ministry today. So I think what you'll find out is that it's a great opportunity to see how you are really wired, how God uniquely wired you, how.

And then how do I really leverage those skill sets? I have to be successful and then how do I make connections in order to move forward?

One of the things that we've, we've done recently is, you know, we created a Facebook page for all those coming through a specific assessment. And you can look back years later and I still see those same people connecting because that week was special for them and it made a connection.

They're helping each other, they're coaching one another. So. So, yeah, so it's, it's not that, it's not that bad of a week. It actually turns out to be a great week for people.

Lee Stephenson: 00:03:23

When you think through candidates that are coming to an assessment center or say somebody's interviewing a potential, you know, somebody that says that, hey, I'm interested in church planning and they're trying to pre assess whether or not this is who makes a good candidate to come to an assessment center. When do you know, like, you know, this is the practical next step for you to take.

Marlan Mincks: 00:03:45

Yeah, I think you can look at yourself, where at you may be brand new to church planting or maybe you've been in a church that's planted churches. But one, I think you have to have a sense of calling, you know, God is really leading me in this direction.

You have to have that affirmed by some people around you as well that you know what, maybe God is leading you to this church planting thing. Maybe that's your next start. And then I think really just if you can come with an openness, you're really ready to go to an assessment.

Because when you come with that openness, you're ready to see what God is going to do. You're going to learn so much about yourself. So anywhere along that line, we see people who have already started.

Sometimes that's not the preferred way to do it. We actually want to help you understand your skill set, get you some coaching stuff before then.

But anywhere along that line, if you're ready to have people look into your life, I think that's where you want to say, God, how do you want to network me with people that can actually grow me, develop me, and you can use me greater.

Lee Stephenson: 00:04:42

Now, I know with Converge, like we have a multi day experience, and that's not necessarily true across the board. When, when people talk about an assessment center, why does Converge do it in the format that they do over multiple days?

Marlan Mincks: 00:04:56

Yeah, I think when you're looking at the 16 building blocks, what you're trying to get to is not intellectual ascent. Do I agree with these questions or these skill sense, but behavior, Do I live this way?

And honestly, you can fake it for a good day and a half, but by the end of the second day, into the third day, there's enough, you know, you wore down a little bit and there's just so much going on, but it's tough to fake it. And the real you comes out and the real you is important.

And so you're going to get the chance to really say, hey, what is it that drives me and what is it that I really believe in and I live out?

And so we're looking at you to see, do you have the behaviors that would indicate you have these building blocks, not just something that you've agreed to. You didn't read a great book and say, you know what, I agree with those things, let's plant a church. But you actually live evangelistically.

You actually live out the ability to be an entrepreneur.

Danny Parmelee: 00:05:50

This goes back to the timing, question, or chronology of when someone should go. I know there's some different opinions, so I'd love for you to weigh in on this. Is there a time where it's too early?

Like if, if, if someone feels called but they know, oh, what you know, I, I want to finish seminary. I still have two years left, or I've committed to this secular job for two years. Is that too early to go? Or I know I need an internship or resident.

What's kind of your thought on, hey, go early, find out what you need, or, you know, wait until you're closer to knowing that you're actually going to.

Marlan Mincks: 00:06:23

Plan well, interesting enough, I think it could work both ways. But I think what is more important is do you have the wisdom around you to help you kind of stage the process of where you're at?

Are you really thinking, you know what, I've got to get through school, that's going to Be three years from now and then I'd like to plan, but I really want to know what kind of skills I'm going to need to develop and maybe getting an internship then. If you're open to that, that could be the right time.

Otherwise, I think if you've got your school done, you've got, you're prepared, you're ready to go, it is better to wait, I think, and put yourself in kind of an extended, maybe a one year process. So I'm going to go to assessment. I've come through a pre assessment.

I'm in assessment now and over the next year I'm going to gather any more necessary skills. I'm going to begin to move to the community, I'm going to fundraise, network, all of those things. I kind of like the year ahead.

If you're looking at church planners at one unit plan, you know, probably in the next nine to 12 months, that gives you a good buffer, I think, of learning and developing your skills.

Lee Stephenson: 00:07:21

Right now. If a candidate is looking at coming to assessment center and they're married, do you typically encourage the spouse to come? And if so, why?

Marlan Mincks: 00:07:32

Yeah, absolutely. We look at you as a team, so we want to see how you operate together.

We believe that your spouse, even though they may not be the children's director or, you know, the worship leader or whatever, they play a vital part in this. And we really want to assess you as a team so that we can speak into your life as a team.

Make sure that you maintain healthy behaviors, you develop, you grow together. A lot of times we see, you know, guys who just couldn't make it without their wife. In fact, I don't think I could have planted without.

And they covered so much.

And so I think it's really important, important to be there as a team, to go through this and to really kind of tap into your spouse's gifts, strengths and areas so that you're both working as a team. You need each other in this process.

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:20

Can, can somebody flip side of that? Can somebody come to an assessment center single, you know, where maybe they're not married. How have you seen that happen over the years?

Marlan Mincks: 00:08:28

Sure. George Bedley in the Portland area, Seattle area, he came to the assessment single.

We jokingly said in order to plant, you need to go home and get married. And he did. He went and got home.

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:41

He listened to that, he took it very serious.

Marlan Mincks: 00:08:45

But, but it is an important thing. I think you can come as a single person and there are people who God is saying, you know, I don't have marriage in the future for you.

And there are people that God is saying, I'm asking you to wait so you can come in that timing, that process as well. So there are some things I think if you're not going to be married, you have to look at ministry and say, how is this going to work out?

You know, day to day ministry type thing.

Danny Parmelee: 00:09:09

Speak a little bit of the outcomes because they're pretty, you know, they're pretty specific.

It's not just kind of, here's some general advice and in wisdom and you know, talk a little bit about what the reactions usually are from different people as they get those.

Marlan Mincks: 00:09:23

Yeah. So we have three major outcomes.

At the end of the three and a half day process, you're going to get a document that is going to give you your areas of growth, your areas of strength, and a final outcome, one which is going to be recommended. We see that you have all 16 building blocks. We think you're ready to go plant. But even then we're not saying go do this tomorrow.

We're asking you to lean heavily into the Lord. What is his timing, who are the people you have around you, develop the right team, those kinds of things.

But a lot of times those who are recommended are people who've been around church planning quite a bit. So it's not a new idea to them.

They've been in a great church, they've been an ascending church, maybe they've even participated on a church planting team. The second outcome would be conditions. You have all 16 building blocks, but there's just some areas you need to grow in.

And so we're going to ask you to take some time to stop. Maybe you need a coach. Maybe you need to see a healthy church for the first time.

A lot of people will come out of churches where God is calling them to plan, but they haven't seen a good healthy situation.

What does it look like to do ministry really well and to them we're saying you would really benefit from being in a healthy church for maybe six months, that kind of thing. Develop some skills, maybe some marriage, some marriage pieces as well that you've really got to work on.

Just take some time off that in ministry you don't get a lot of. So the last one then would be not recommended. We just see that you're not a church planter.

We're looking at you very specifically over these three and a half days. We're trying to say, you know, can you be a point leader?

Can you in a church plan, you're the Person who wakes up, comes up with the ideas, there's really no one else to go ask and say, what should I do? I mean, you have coaches, but it really all comes back to you. A point leader, that's a very specific position in a church plan. So as not recommended.

Maybe you'd fit great as a number two, maybe you'd fit great as an associate.

Or sometimes we'll have worship pastors who believe that they should plant only to find out that, you know, what my strengths are really in this area of worship. So I'm going to stay in there.

It can be hard, I think, especially if you come believing that church planting is your next step, only to find out that this panel of 20 some people are saying to you, we just don't see that you have that giving that can be that hard. But mostly, I think over the years, what I've seen is people after a time realize, you know what, that wouldn't have been a good move for me.

So we don't try to play God with your life, but we do try to speak wisdom and truth into your life and really help you make a good decision going forward.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:51

Now, over the years, I'm sure you begin to see some trends and patterns in the type of candidates that typically come to an assessment center. Are you in that pattern or trends? Are you seeing a trend of deficiencies? You know, that there are certain.

You know, this just seems to be across the board that we have a majority of candidates that are underdeveloped in these specific building blocks.

Marlan Mincks: 00:12:14

Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, we're kind of in that YouTube stage, that podcast era, where we grasp a little bit of information and then run with it.

And what I'm seeing, I call it the copycat generation.

We're sitting in church, we're seeing that our pastor has got a great church going, he's got great groups going, great ministry going, and we kind of know him. And so we're saying, wow, that can't be that hard. And so I'm ready to go do what he really prepared for years to do and to do well.

I think anytime you make something look easy, other people are going to look and go, this is really easy. But you've worked really hard at it. So I think it's easy to copy and rather than really create what God's asked you to create.

So some of the things I think you would see today, evangelism is really a weak block. Most people struggle with just clearly presenting the gospel to a friend, to a neighbor, even someone in Their. In their family, maybe.

So that's a weaker block. So when I was a bit younger, you know, Billy Graham is at the end of his crusade thing, you moody Bible, those kinds of things.

You hear very clear presentations today. You hear a lot of suggestions about coming to Christ and really not a clear understanding. Discipleship.

I think clearly you can ask someone that has a good plan for discipleship, and you'll find out they came from a good church that discipled well.

But frankly, a lot of people are not discipled well, especially in our culture that says one hour on Sunday, we're in, we're out, or not getting that extra time to really be discipled. Well. And so we struggle, I think, as church planners to learn how to create a system that will disciple people really well.

Those are the two philosophy of ministry, which really says, how do I move past Sunday service to creating a system that will involve and lead people to be discipled? So I think it's easy to create the Sunday thing and hope that that's enough. But as you guys know, being in ministry Sunday is not enough.

Yeah, that's your great shot at people. But you really have to have a system, a philosophy of ministry, to really work through the lives of people that God is bringing to.

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:19

Well, I. For me, I have one last question.

Over the years you've been doing assessment center, what is the craziest experience you've ever had at an assessment center?

Marlan Mincks: 00:14:29

Wow, that's. That's hard to pick out. Which one, because there's been a lot of them. Some I couldn't even tell you, but one that's unfiltered, one that sticks out.

I was with Pastor Keith, who played in the NBA and played for about 10 years for the Orlando Magic. And we were an assessment and a big guy. Yeah, a big guy. He's 7 foot tall, but he's also about 5ft wide, I think.

So we ran an assessment, and this one candidate showed all week that he really had an anger problem. And along with that, he was missing some key blocks. He had never really started anything from. From nothing. Never really created much ministry.

He just wanted to be upfront. And so at the end of the week, unfortunately, our message to him was not recommended.

And because he had kind of displayed some anger problems throughout the week, I told Keith, I said, you come in the room with me because you're big. So I gave him his final outcome. I said, listen, it's not recommended. We think you'd find a better fit somewhere else.

And then, you know, some things we were concerned about really were was your anger that we saw this week. He jumps up on the coffee table in front of me and screams, I.

Lee Stephenson: 00:15:40

Do not have an anger problem.

Marlan Mincks: 00:15:42

Fortunately, Keith stood up. He was 7 foot and about so things like that. But, you know, I think that the experience of the 7 center is really positive.

Lee Stephenson: 00:15:52

No, I, I would agree.

And I, I know as you started the conversation talking about even in your own life being a major turning point for you and, and just how God encouraged you on the track of moving forward in vocational ministry, the Lord did the same thing lives at assessment center. And so I'm very thankful for that experience. I know my wife would say the same thing. Marlon, thanks so much for what you do and for taking the time.

And I know assessment is such an important piece of the puzzle for anybody that's thinking and considering church planning.

I highly encourage you to jump into one and you're always more than welcome to come and experience the, the Converge Church Planning Assessment center as well. Guys, until next time, this has been unfiltered. Keep it real.