Baptism & communion

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:08

This is the unfiltered podcast. My name is Lee Stevenson, and I have the joy of being the lead pastor of a church plant and executive director of church planning with Converge.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:18

My name is Danny Parmelene. I oversee church planning for Converge Mid America.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:22

And today we're going to be talking about church ordinances and how to maximize those moments, how to incorporate those in the life of your church. And sometimes that can be a little bit of a tricky thing in the life of a church plant and even more so when you're in a portable situation.

So for those that are kind of what are the ordinances? We're going to talk about baptism and communion. So that's the conversation that we're going to kind of focus in on today.

And so let's begin with baptism. Let's talk a little bit about baptism. What did you do in the early days? How did you adjust? Did you change as the church got older?

Looking back at it now, Danny, is there anything too, that maybe you would change in your. Your direction when it came to baptism?

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:05

Well, to start out, I remember I had a pastoral care class in seminary, and we had a time where we had to, like, practice baptism. And I thought that was the dumbest, like, most awkward thing in the world. And then, and then once we started doing, I'm like, oh.

And that's the most practical thing we learned. I learned so much like, okay, if someone's a little larger or if they're taller, here's what you do and don't do type of thing. So for us.

Well, one of the. Actually the neat things is that we ended up doing baptism services before we ever launched. And that was really great because.

Danny Parmelee: 00:01:35

Which I think is a great idea.

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:37

Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like culture DNA is part of it and just naturally flows into it instead of adding it later. And we did. We had people that came to Christ during that launch team phase.

So if that is you and you're listening now, do the baptisms before you ever have a service. Don't say, oh, wait until we're a quote, unquote, real church.

You are a real church by the very fact that people are coming to Christ and getting baptized. So definitely do that beforehand. Now, we were on the shores of Lake Michigan in Milwaukee, so that's how we started ours.

And as freezing cold as it was, that's really what we did probably for the first four or five years exclusively.

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:19

So that meant summer, though.

Lee Stephenson: 00:02:21

What did I say?

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:22

In the summertime?

Lee Stephenson: 00:02:23

Yeah, in the summertime. And that's what I was saying that we only then did baptisms that probably would have been maybe like June, July, August, September.

The latest we went ever was October, because again, Lake Michigan being pretty close. So it didn't allow as much opportunity than for people who came to Christ in January. And it was kind of like, well, can you wait?

And sometimes even from a theological perspective, that's kind of hard for me because it's like, no, there's not supposed to be this waiting period. It's like, hey, where's the water, shouldn't I be baptized? Type of thing. But it did create for us a couple things.

One is that it created an amazing environment. So usually this was on a Saturday that we did it, and it created a just picturesque environment. There was waves crashing.

It was in nature, felt really awesome, beautiful. People shared their testimonies on the shore and then went and, and, and got baptized. The negative is that we.

So many people missed out on that because there was a lot of people who. They only came to church on Sunday. They weren't going to come to a baptism service. They didn't even really know what that was.

So eventually we did start doing baptisms in the service as well.

Danny Parmelee: 00:03:38

Right.

Lee Stephenson: 00:03:39

Which we did horse troughs. That's what we did for ours. I'm trying.

Danny Parmelee: 00:03:43

On stage or off stage?

Lee Stephenson: 00:03:45

They were. Yeah, off stage.

Danny Parmelee: 00:03:49

Okay.

Lee Stephenson: 00:03:50

So, yeah. But anyways, I don't. For some reason, I think that we rented something one time. But for the most. For the most part, it was.

It was horse troughs that we used.

Danny Parmelee: 00:03:59

Super, super.

Lee Stephenson: 00:04:01

How about you?

Danny Parmelee: 00:04:02

I mean, we adjusted over time. So when we were portable, we did all of our baptisms Sunday night and usually in somebody's pool and just invite everybody to come over.

Part of the challenge was, again, people typically didn't want to come back out, you know, and so attendance dropped off significantly, even though it was a major moment in the life of our church. And that gave us kind of going back to the drawing board and, okay, how do we adjust this? How can we grow this?

And it was a couple of things that we figured out. One was for us, we got to having it. A part of our worship experience was a very powerful thing.

And so as soon as we could make that move and make that adjustment, we did. And that helped our baptism numbers even to start to increase because everybody was a part of it. It really created this family dynamic.

And then the second piece of it was we made an adjustment. If this is going to be in our service, why don't we just Teach on baptism in the service.

And so instead of carrying through a normal series or just kind of picking up where we were and then throwing baptism in, we made the entire day about baptism. And so I would stand on stage, for instance, and just literally teach for 25 minutes on baptism. Why do we do it? Why shouldn't you get baptized?

You know, baptism isn't the thing that saves us and just talk about the symbolism of baptism. And we just saw. So four or five times a year, our entire church body is getting a 25 minute talk on baptism.

Our baptism numbers really began to increase dramatically once we started making that shift. And then the power was we did baptisms actually during the worship. So we would, you know, we maybe shorten the pre sermon worship.

I'd teach for 25 minutes. So I shortened my message.

And then we'd baptize the rest of the time and the band would come back out, the band would be playing and we start dunking people. And the worship just went to a different level when that was taking place and people just really got excited. It was a.

Those were our best services of the year were our baptism services. And you know, one of the questions I had for you is how did you handle the testimony thing? Yes, I was, you know, that's going to jump in.

I'll talk about that in a moment as well. How did you work that out? How did it work versus in a service versus on the shoreline? Because you know, you have different variables at play.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:30

Well, both required a pre written testimony and that people had to read their testimony. They couldn't wing it. Everybody thinks like, oh, this will be more, this will be better if I just kind of shoot from the hip type of thing.

Danny Parmelee: 00:06:43

Did they get coaching on how to do that?

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:45

Say they had to write it and have it be approved.

Danny Parmelee: 00:06:48

Okay.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:49

And part of that is just our, our process of.

And it really became a discipleship thing for us to be able to help people to even understand their own testimony, what they were including, what they weren't. And that was kind of our way too of just kind of seeing have you committed your life to Christ or not.

And so they would read that when it was a testimony that was during the church service, someone else actually read their testimony for them while they were.

Danny Parmelee: 00:07:19

At a microphone type of thing.

Lee Stephenson: 00:07:20

At a microphone type of thing. And so obviously time wise that only allowed per service, like probably four or five, four or five baptisms because of the testimony time.

And so if you're going to be doing lots of people that are getting baptized, then There may be, you know, you can do video recording of it, which we did at times, or people are sharing just a portion of it, but each person. And again, this is part of the philosophy of ministry, or theological part of it, that someone did have a, you know, credible confession of faith.

Danny Parmelee: 00:07:55

Yeah. So, yeah, for. For us, we did. If you were getting baptized, you were required to do a video testimony.

And so we'd sit down, we do an interview, we capture it all on video. We didn't show them all. We just showed maybe a handful of them. And I just set it up. So you guys, during.

When I teach on baptism, we got a number of people that are getting baptized today. I've had the opportunity to hear their stories and know a little bit what God has done in their lives. Some of the stories are dramatic.

Some of them are just fairly normal. But I want you to hear a few of what God's been doing in people's lives and watch this. And then we'd show the video.

And then from there, I'd actually do a gospel presentation. Ask people, you know, if you've never stepped out in faith just to trust Jesus, why don't we start there?

And then I challenge people, like, maybe you've, you know, come to Christ a long time ago, but you never gone public because it's time, like, you know, it's time to take that step of faith and obedience and consider getting baptized.

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:56

So, yeah, I absolutely. I mean, just handing someone a microphone is one of the most dangerous.

Danny Parmelee: 00:09:01

Absolutely. I just couldn't do it. I just can do it. So. So that's why we. We did the video. And then that allowed us to clarify, like, and work with them.

And we found, you know, there were certain people just so introverted that just had a hard time. I mean, public speaking is the number one fear of people in the United States. So.

So you're sitting there going, okay, if we can get them off stage and do it on video, people are much more willing to do that, but it was still required for them to take that moment.

Lee Stephenson: 00:09:31

We also were very clear on what people could and couldn't wear. And that's also where baptism T shirts that are dark colored are just. They're like, wow, that's so amazing that the church is so generous.

It's like, we are generous, but we are also. We have learned from skills, we've learned from experience that when you let people just show up with what they think.

Danny Parmelee: 00:09:52

Are appropriate because, again, well, well said. Let's talk a little bit about communion. How did you work Communion into a Sunday service. How do you coach guys to think about communion?

Making sure, you know, number one, we're holding a high standard of what communion is, but also recognizing usually in the life of a church plant, you have a lot of new people that are coming in, haven't even made a proclamation that Jesus is their savior that are still on this journey. How do you stay sensitive to both levels of people that are within your congregation, Danny?

Lee Stephenson: 00:10:25

Yeah, well, first of all, even just from a frequency standpoint, I believe that scripture just leaves that open to kind of decide. So there's some churches that practice it every single week, and others that do it once a month, some do it once a quarter. We landed at once a month.

We felt like that was enough to have a regular routine and yet not something that we did every single week that, you know, that maybe would have the potential to become mundane or routine type of thing. So for us, that's, that's kind of where we landed with that. We did intinction. So that was where people would walk up.

Danny Parmelee: 00:11:03

I call it Catholic style.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:04

Yes, I remember that from a previous podcast. I'm still laughing about that. But yes, intinction. And it wasn't for us, the intinction part of it. I don't even remember why we started that way.

But what I realized was, is that there was something pretty dramatic because same as kind of what you were just discussing is that I come from a theological perspective where I want to be protective that communion is for believers. And our invitation to communion was also a bit of who should not. And probably a lot of it was who should not be taking communion that day.

And what we learned over time is stories and stories of people saying, like, it was my seventh, you know, seven months in seventh communion service, and I sat the other six because I was told to sit.

And there was something so special and momentous that when they then came to Christ, for them to physically stand up and walk and to participate, that it was really, really important to them.

So, yes, we did other, you know, we would try to change it up from time to time and, you know, passed and, you know, we used the little, the little cups and wafers that you can order type of thing and, you know, tried some other little gluten.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:19

Free stand over on the side.

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:21

Yeah, we did the gluten free and. But anyway, so that's, that's kind of. And it was always a very clear gospel presentation, gospel invitation.

And also telling people if you're, you know, if you haven't placed your faith in Christ, then, then don't come forward. And so I loved communion Sundays. It was amazing to just see people. And yet it did take time.

It was not the most efficient, especially when you start talking about a lot of people that are having to wait in line.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:52

It takes time.

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:53

And so we would try to teach on that and say, hey, use this as time of reflection. Don't just be thinking, man, why is this taking so long?

We want to get into whatever, get on with our day, go to the football game or that type of thing.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:05

Did you do that pre sermon or post sermon?

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:07

Usually when you do that, it was usually the end.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:10

So you set it up.

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:11

Set it up? Yep. Set it up with, you know, the message and, and then go into it.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:17

Yeah, I know. For us too, we, we. We kind of changed a little bit.

When we first in our first church plant started, we actually did a community service as a separate service.

And, and so once a month, we'd actually meet on Sunday evenings and do about a 45 minute where we'd sing a few songs, do a short devotional, and then we'd take communion together. And that was special. And part of that came out of.

Rooted for me was just the kind of the historical perspective of the church about the importance of communion, that the early church would actually dismiss people that hadn't been baptized in their service and then would take communion with those that had been baptized. And that's part of the reason.

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:56

By early church, do you mean Mark Dever or.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:57

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Even before that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:00

Okay.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:00

But part of the.

That's why, you know, historically Christians became known as cannibals, like they're eating flesh and they're drinking blood, was because rumors were happening from people that weren't believers that what is this communion thing all about? And so we wanted to hold a high standard, knowing that there are a lot of people coming in the church that really had.

They were just checking this whole Christianity, Jesus thing out for the first time. And we didn't want to put something in front of them that would. That really didn't belong there.

And so we eventually moved to doing on Sundays, but again, kind of like you once a month, that's what we do even currently. But it comes with a high level. Taking a moment and explaining the importance why we do this, why this is important to us as believers.

And then I just take a moment and would encourage all of our planters to do this. Just take a moment and address the nonbelievers in the room and say, I know a number of you here's some verbiage. Think of.

I know a number of you are in the room and you would self identify the fact, like you're searching, you're on a spiritual journey, but that hasn't led to Jesus yet for you. We believe that's where it's leading. And we were praying that you would come to know Jesus. But here's the thing.

I would hate for you to participate in something that didn't mean something to you. And so in the process, as plates are going to be passed or however you do it, simply allow it to go by you or don't stand up and come forward.

But in that moment, I'm going to challenge you to have the courage to just ask God to reveal himself to you, because I think God will meet you in the moment of that.

That gives opportunity to talk, educate on what communion is, but also be sensitive to those that are on a journey and they're trying to figure out, but give them an ability to get out of that awkwardness of doing something that honestly doesn't mean something to you and you find that people really respect that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:15:50

Do you allow communion to happen in your small group settings?

Danny Parmelee: 00:15:56

Never been asked. If I'm honest, I've never had a small group ask me on that. So it'd be something for us to sit and talk about. But I've never had.

I've never run across that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:06

Yeah.

Danny Parmelee: 00:16:07

How about you? Since you asked the question?

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:08

Yeah, we certainly did with the proper training. Because again, we thought that it was important, but we thought that was.

And especially for those that said, hey, you know what, community, only once a month, and if I miss one month, that's, you know, two months that goes by.

But obviously that you have to have a small group system and structure where you have leaders that are in place that you trust and aren't, you know, saying weird and wacky things type of thing. And same with baptisms as well, too. We really encourage people to do it in the context of the larger church.

But, you know, obviously from a theological perspective, you know, sometimes people are really close to those. They're in their small groups.

And one of the things that we encourage is that when we did do baptism services, if there was someone besides the pastor that, you know, played an important spiritual role in their life, that they were the ones that did that type of thing. And then just a quick practical thing that again, this was part of that, that first class.

If you do baptisms in a, you know, other than a tank, where you're on the outside having two people really is actually helpful. So if you're doing them in the lake or doing them in the pool.

And it's just a great opportunity as well, if you've got leaders or you have developed an elder board by this time to invite them to come out there with you, because it's also. It does reflect some spiritual significance. And so we would usually do pairs like that where the staff pastors would be, you know, paired up with.

With an elder. You know, people would come out and, you know, and get baptized.

Or a lot of times, if it was a husband and wife couple, you know, we would baptize the husband first and then allow him to help participate in the baptism. And it just is really some really special little things that we kind of learned.

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:56

Yeah, I have similar.

Some of my favorite memories of baptism, baptizing entire families at the same time, where, you know, so I've done one where we baptize a family of four, and they're all holding hands and we just baptize them all at the same time. Or we baptize the parents, and the parents help baptize their own children.

I would highly encourage you to consider doing that as a planter, bring people in, as this is part of their own personal discipleship process. And honestly, we believe in the priesthood of all believers for a reason. And so let's. To help our people understand that and live that as well.

Thanks for being with us. It's been a fun conversation talking about the ordinances of the church and hope it's been helpful to you again. Till next time, y'all. Keep it real.