The art of preaching

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:07

Hey, everyone, My name is Lee Stevenson. I have the joy of being executive director of church planting with Converge.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:13

My name is Danny Parmelin. I oversee church planting for Converge Mid America.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:17

And this is our unfiltered podcast where we're just having real conversations about church planting.

Today we're going to talk about preaching and the art of preaching, preparation of preaching, things to consider doing when you're preaching, things to not do when you're preaching as well. And so, Danny, I know this is one of your hot buttons when it comes to the preaching and coaching guys that you're pretty passionate about preaching.

And so I'm going to just kind of set you up here and ask you. Preaching honestly begins in the heart of any pastor. And that's really the point where I think sermons are crafted and then they birth out.

God is doing a work in us first before really we can begin to communicate that.

And what are some basic practices that you encourage pastors to think of, you've done in your own life to make sure your own soul, your own heart is being prepared before you begin to deliver a message?

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:11

Yeah, well, yeah, I'm definitely passionate about preaching.

Preaching has always been kind of a love hate relationship in the sense that, man, just the weeks are grueling and just the pressures to be able to communicate God's word and to just to do a good job with it. And at the same time, it's something that I love and love to do once it's finished, maybe type of thing. I think that. And you already hit on it.

The most important thing is allowing even God's word to speak to you first so that you're not just thinking, oh, how am I going to write a funny sermon or an intriguing sermon or an entertaining sermon, But I'm big on being faithful to the text, which I think every pastor would probably say.

But that's just been ingrained in me all the way when I first came to Christ and then even future in schooling stuff is really trying to figure out what is the author trying to communicate and not just go with, oh, well, this is kind of a neat, intriguing thing to say or creative or a cute saying or this is kind of kitschy.

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:21

It's tweetable.

Lee Stephenson: 00:02:22

That's tweetable. But really just starting. And what I found in my own personal life is that I spent a lot more time studying than I did writing.

So I spent a lot more time studying the passage. And there's tons of things that never, ever, ever made it to the sermon.

But I needed to Wrestle with, I needed to grapple with, I needed to look up some of the different original languages and cross reference and all of this.

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:49

You mean you didn't preach everything you prepared?

Lee Stephenson: 00:02:51

I didn't. I didn't. So.

And that's the thing, I think actually the more that you prepare, you're trying to even get in your mind, how can I help them the most, not just give them the most information? Because that's not usually about information.

Danny Parmelee: 00:03:05

Dump.

Lee Stephenson: 00:03:06

Yeah. And I've seen, Yeah, I mean, I've.

I've seen my fair share of preaching where it's like, oh man, that person just said a lot of stuff and even a lot of it was true. But you didn't actually help the person to take the next step.

You didn't help the person to actually grow in their own Bible interpretation and application.

Because that's the other thing that was important for me whenever I was preaching is I wanted someone else not to go home going, man, that pastor is so amazing that he can figure out the secret knowledge of God, but that they just watched week in and week out. Oh, I saw what he did. He read the text, he figured this out, and then he came to the point of application.

Danny Parmelee: 00:03:53

Helping your people begin to understand the process in their own life, how they do this.

Lee Stephenson: 00:03:58

Yeah.

And so I, you know, and again, you know, most guys are listening to this, probably have, you know, some classes and preaching and exegesis, but of figuring out the, you know, the authorial intent and then working on into application part.

Danny Parmelee: 00:04:15

Of it, which I think honestly is something that's usually a miss when it comes to a lot of preaching, is we stop at the information level and we miss on the practical application. How does this now affect your life today, tomorrow, this week? How are you going to wrestle with this? What is God asking you to do about this?

And we can't stop there.

I think there was probably a day and a time where our society was a little bit more biblically literate, that we could just kind of stay high level and kind of expose the text and know that they could then take it, apply it from there. I think those days are gone. Yeah.

And I know I'm going way out and kind of saying that, but I do think we're at a time where we've got to lead our people through our preaching at a different level than we ever have, at least in an American church in my lifetime, where we have to help tell people, this is what it means, this is what you do with it now. Do it, you know, and have to be even a little bit more prescriptive than maybe you had to be 20, 30 years ago.

Lee Stephenson: 00:05:19

Yeah, yeah.

And I know that, you know, for a while there was kind of the seeker sensitive movement was kind of staying away from, I mean, too in depth or too theological.

But I think that if we're, I think we're at a place now where people are so biblically illiterate that we have to give them enough handholds to see the, you know, to see the theology in it. And one of our pastors would always say that like theology is inherently applicable. And so that's what we need to do.

We need to be the theologians who then connect it to the application.

Danny Parmelee: 00:06:00

Yeah, I think that's, that's very well said. And, and some of that comes down like, let's talk about technique on how to do that. What, what are approaches that you found worked for you?

Maybe you've coached other guys, maybe you picked up from other people as well.

When it comes to putting all those components together and presenting in a way that is compelling, it leads somebody to wrestle with it and then they actually have the ability to apply that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:24

Yeah, I think that just again, this goes back to the. More information isn't always better, but of figuring out the one main point and then having your.

Everything else is just a subtext there instead of like, here's a hundred different.

Danny Parmelee: 00:06:40

Things, they're supporting that one main point. Yeah, Everything getting lost in a bunch of points.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:44

I mean, people are so overloaded with information and what to do. It's like, I mean, I could barely remember some of my own sermons in the next, you know, two weeks down the road.

It's like they're not going to remember all that stuff.

But if you can hammer home that one point that the text is really trying to say and give the multiple ways that it's kind of supporting it, that's figure out how you can nail it down to one sentence, if you will, and figure out a hundred different ways to continue to say that in the sermon.

Danny Parmelee: 00:07:13

Yeah, yeah. I had a person years ago kind of teach me a little bit kind of art of delivery stuff.

And I don't know if they took this from Andy Stanley or it was just kind of birthed out of who they were as well or a combination of things. But it's always been something that sticks my head is I, we, God, you we.

And you know, the idea behind is begin just talking about yourself, something that God's been doing in your life and brings people in. Hey, haven't we all kind of wrestled with that at some level. And so you take that and you create a connection. Yeah, that's true.

I'm same way as you are. Well, God has some interesting things to say about that. And then the you part is, begins the application. Hey, this is what you need to do with that.

And you challenge them at a personal level how they digest that. And then you end up, hey, we can all do this, we can make this happen.

And I think for people learning how to preach, getting into it, that's a helpful thought. I think over time, you know, you develop your own style and ways.

But for those that are new into the game, that that may be a helpful way to begin to think about how do I craft my delivery of the important things that God's word is bringing up to mind to share.

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:19

Yep. Taking it from the point and then figuring out. Yeah, the, the art, so to speak. The way to. Yeah.

Present in a way that they're going to actually remember it.

Danny Parmelee: 00:08:29

Yeah.

And I really think the other piece that will help you be a better communicator is you really need to know your audience and not assume everybody is going to digest this. And who has got called you to breach?

You know, I kind of put it there's four major groups within our population that you have atheists, you have practical Christians, but in between that you have truth seekers, you have people that are looking for truth or looking for answers, but they've never put the connection that Jesus is that practical Christians are those that they're practically a Christian because right now it's working for them.

And then you have kind of self feeders, you have people that are mature in their faith, they have the ability and they have a discipline of digesting God's word themselves and actually feeding themselves. They're not dependent upon the church, not dependent on other people for their own spiritual well being.

Does God call people to communicate and to reach all those four groups? I. Yes, I would say absolutely. But it's a unique call to be a church that's called and be a preacher called to preach to atheists like that.

I don't think that's everybody's calling. Same on the other side of the spectrum, you know, to go just after the self feeders and to just totally preach and go to reach them.

Certainly I think there are people that God has called it, but I don't think that's everybody. But the challenge is even the best orators in the world cannot connect to all four of those groups at the same time.

It's Impossible, let alone, I think it's actually very difficult to go beyond two of those groups in the same sermon. I think the best orders can do two. I think the majority of the average preacher can do one.

And so you've got to figure out based on where you're at, who your church is focusing on, who you feel like God has purposely placed you to reach, who can you best connect to and go after that. And then you figure out how do you engage the other group. So let's say God's called you to go after the practical Christian or the truth seeker.

It doesn't mean you don't need the, the self feeders. You need the self feeders, but they're the ones that should be discipling other people, moving them further in their own discipleship pathway.

And so I think sometimes the approach when it comes to preaching is we just going to shotgun it, we're going to shoot it all over hovet land somewhere. And we don't really think about audience. I think what, you know, if you aim small, you miss small.

And so think about how do we actually have a more pointed conversation and sermon that really connects with this audience. And then, you know, peripheral, you're going to hit and, and those, it's going to connect there as well.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:05

Yeah, that's great.

One of the things that in working with guys that are just starting out preaching is I, I believe that, that we, we tend to our preaching reflects who we are.

And I've kind of probably heard this before of kind of three different kind of categories of prophet, priest and king that you have kind of a bent and you're probably going to be more of one of those or a combination than the other one. So the king is the person that's always, you know, preaching vision. Just you, you read a text and just vision oozes kind of out of you.

Prophet is maybe a little bit more of the, you know, you're, you like the Romans and the Corinthians and I'm.

Danny Parmelee: 00:11:44

Going to slap people around a little.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:45

Bit, give them a little punch in the gut and then the priest who is just like everything is love and grace.

And the thing is, is that it doesn't mean that you have to try to hit and become an equal third part, but you do just need to recognize in your own preaching, this is my bent, this is my bent.

So do I need to draw that back a little bit or again, this is where having a teaching team and, or having other people critique you in your preaching is really, really helpful to know where it's starting to become more just about who you are and your personality and is maybe leaning that way.

This is where again, having a preaching team where you can get different people with kind of different gifting so that the church doesn't all sudden become like, if you're a prophet preacher and then pretty soon everybody in the church, you're just attracting those that just like, oh, you love my preacher. He's just like a punch in the gut type of preacher.

And it's like, well, not everybody needs a punch in the gut every single Sunday type of thing that way. So just kind of recognizing that and, and kind of growing into that.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:48

A couple mistakes too. I think it'd be fun to kind of key on that.

I see a lot of church planters or people even new to the preaching ministry make when it comes to preaching. One is they give too much of their day to sermon development in those early days.

The reality is, yes, your preaching is important, you know, but the relationship ability is what's going to get your church up to a certain level. And then you, you probably need to give more time towards the preaching and improving the quality of that.

And so don't overdo the amount of time you spend in your office studying and all of that sort for the neglect of the important relationships in the early days of your. Of your church plant.

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:30

Yeah, I can agree with that more. And the real goal is discipleship. It's not for people to just think that you're a good preacher.

And so what's interesting, especially at the church plant phase of under 150 to 200 people, people will come and listen to you because of the relationship they like. You can even suck at the delivery of preaching. But if you're communicating God's word and you have relationship with them, it goes.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:54

A really, really long way.

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:55

I mean, I mean, it's just. I'm amazed at some preachers that I hear and it's like, oh my goodness, you're not that good.

But you're discipling people because you have relationship with them. And maybe you didn't have every illustration perfect and you maybe stuttered a little bit and your hand gestures weren't the best.

But the one other thing I'll add, I think is getting evaluation in preaching before you preach the sermon.

So that was something that we had even as a larger church is that whichever pastor on the preaching team was giving their sermon, people critiqued the sermon before so that there was opportunity for us as the preachers to be able to change and to Adjust. And it was great. We had other staff members, we had younger guys who were considering ministry. So part of it was teaching time for them.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:48

So would you preach it live?

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:49

I preached it live. And it was Thursday afternoons at 3:00, so you still had enough time to change it.

Now, if you can't do that, especially in a church plan, because you don't have other staff, it's not that difficult to just set up an iPhone, preach it, send it out to a few people and say, what do you think?

Danny Parmelee: 00:15:06

Find a coach.

Lee Stephenson: 00:15:07

And I can think of a couple times that we had women staff members that were part of this preaching development team. They saved my rear end. I said some stuff that they're like, whoa, you cannot say that. You cannot use that word. And I was like, really?

Like, that's hilarious. Like, that is so fun. No, Danny, you can't. And I went back and asked my wife like, hey, you know, like, what do you think about this?

And my wife's like, absolutely not. No, you cannot.

And so to have a diversity of people that are on the team, and yes, it's hard that you have people critiquing you, but it's really helpful.

Danny Parmelee: 00:15:49

Yeah. And you have to look at it from the point of view. It's out of love. I think the other kind of.

For me, the last mistake I see a lot of guys make is they just fill their sermons with quotes from other people and other authors. And the reality is your people don't care. I don't care what Martin Luther had to say. This reformer had to say about this.

And the reality is, too, most of people don't even know who they are. You quote Tim Keller, you quote this person, this person, they don't know who they are.

They want to relate to you and what's going on in your life and how that reflects in their life. And so study, read all those things. Allow that to permeate your heart and direct your heart, but personalize it.

Allow it to be who you are and what's important for your congregation. Don't repeat what everybody else is saying.

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:36

Yeah, Practical question. Prep. How far in advance did you prep? Did you finish your sermons? You know, give.

Danny Parmelee: 00:16:46

Give me a little bit sermon planning. I was a year out, so I had all my sermons kind of basic series and all that kind of planned, big ideas a year out.

And I'd take a whole week study break, Danny, to just kind of begin to negotiate, pray, plan, put those. Put our baptism Sundays in, you know, all those. Those type of things.

By eight weeks I was getting more locked in where I had the big ideas kind of delivered. And by two weeks, I was already. I was there. I was at a place where I could preach it if I had to.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:18

Two weeks out.

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:20

And right now it's a little different because I am totally bi, vocational. And so my sermon prep, sometimes I'm four weeks out, sometimes I'm the week of.

And it just kind of depends on what's going on in my life and how time is different. Sometimes I have the time because I'm traveling. I'm in a hotel room late at night.

I'll write two sermons in one week to try to get ahead of the game, to give me a little bit more time.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:48

That's great. Yeah. I just remember the early days. I mean, I was finishing up the sermons Saturday night, even for our Saturday night services and Sunday mornings.

And then eventually worked to that place in seminary, I had Bob Merritt. He was a great preaching professor. And he's like, yeah, you really want to dedicate about 30 hours a week to planning your sermon.

It's like I'm in church planning, pre launch phase. I'm like, I don't think I can do 30 hours. I'm doing everything else. You know, I can carve out, you know, 10 maybe type of thing.

But then eventually, once the church grows, that you're able to have more time and that you can, you can plan out so that there's more time, that God is going to bring stuff to you, even other things that you're experiencing, dealing with, and it's all, you know, moving towards that, you know, being used for that sermon.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:40

Well, this is a great conversation, just talking about nuts and bolts when it comes to preaching and hope you enjoyed the time. Until next time, y'all, keep it real.