Church planting assessment

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:09

Well, welcome everyone to unfiltered real church planting discussions joined here by Lee.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:15

Hey, guys. I'm Lee Stevenson and I have the privilege of serving Converge, overseeing church planting.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:22

And I'm Danny Parmele and I work with Converge Mid America with church planters.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:27

Awesome.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:30

So today we're going to be talking about assessment. It's kind of where we left off in episode one.

And so, Lee, why don't you even just kind of run us through each kind of network denomination does assessments differently?

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:44

Totally. Yeah, yeah.

And assessment centers really were kind of birthed the idea of assessing church planters from really stuff back in the early 90s, maybe late 80s actually, and kind of characterizing what does it take? What are the wirings of a successful church planter?

In the original, There was like 13 very specific things to look for in the life of a potential church planter. And that gave rise to real, more formalized assessing processes.

And I'd say there's kind of four different ways that you see if we're going to characterize the four major ways that people assess whether or not somebody has what it takes, you know, to be a church planner. One is you have what's called the assessment center and assessment centers.

We'll take more time to dive into each of these, but assessment center is more like a three or four day intensive process. Then you have what we would characterize as behavioral interviews. And then you have, I mean, I like intuition.

You know, it's like you just sit down, maybe you have a meal with the guy and go, I like him. You know, I think he's got it. Or you have just self assessment where guys go, I hate what I'm doing, I'm going to start church.

And they just go for it. So there are a whole lot of different aspects to this. Let me dive in first of all and talk a little bit about assessment center.

nt centers since I think like: 1991

And I'll just kind of walk you through what those four days look like. And so we want a husband and wife team to come together through the assessment process.

Lee Stephenson: 00:02:33

Can I just interrupt really quick when you say husband and wife team? Because for some that can be really, really scary.

And is that saying, oh, well, this is like a co pastoring type of thing where the wife is sharing the stage and sharing the preaching? Or why do you have.

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:47

Yeah, not necessarily. So we have Some of those type of situations.

But basically the reason why we want both to come in is we want to make sure that you're both feeling called. You know, is this something that God has placed on both the husband and wife, leading them together?

Because we believe that, you know, he's not going to lead one spouse in a different direction, he leads the other spouse. And so we want to make sure that there's symmetry there.

But at the same time, we want to assess how they're going to handle the pressures, the stress, the family challenges, all the things that are incorporated with this new work of getting a church. We want to just check in on how's their marriage. And so what you'll see is a husband and wife will come in.

They've done pre work, so they've done questionnaires, they've done personality profiling. They've filled out all kinds of information, just ins and outs of their history about their marriage, about their family life.

And as they kind of come in through the assessment center, we want them to also have an assigned coach or what we would characterize. We want the sending agency to be represented.

So whoever is kind of backing them, saying, hey, we believe in them, we think this is what God is calling them to do. We're going to walk with them through this call.

We want them to be representative at the assessment because it just helps to have some contextual information about the couple. When we get to the deliberation point, that helps us understand their situation, the nuances of their situation.

Somebody that can speak to their history, because we're making pretty major decisions. And they'll sit through a couple. They'll be preaching exercises.

There'll be kind of philosophy of ministry exercises where they'll talk about what kind of church they want to develop and how are they going to actually move people forward in the discipleship process. Want to just make sure that they understand how a disciple is made.

There'll be team interactive exercises that are going to take place and want to see how they process information, but also how they get along with other people. And usually we finish off with a major project that is centered around church planting as well.

But throughout that, they'll get trained in understanding their own personalities, how God has wired them, the strengths and weaknesses of each personality type. They'll sit through with trained counselors and actually get marriage counseling for an hour and a half. They'll go through other interviews.

We want to see what's the history of evangelism in their past.

Is that a driver for them when it Comes to planning a church, and at the end of an assessment center, typically what happens is you get one of three recommendations, one being not recommended. We just don't see you being the point person in a church plan. It doesn't mean that you can't be on a church planning team.

It doesn't mean that you can't be a support staff, staff member to be on this team. But we just don't see that you have the makings, the giftings, the wirings to be the lead person in planning a church.

And so those are based on what we kind of characterize as the 16 building blocks. So we've taken the Ridley 13, added a few extras into that that have just kind of come up to the surface over the years.

And so we're assessing based on those 16 things. It's everything, Danny, from. How's their relationship with God? How's their marriage to. Are they an entrepreneur? There are certain things. You're.

Either you are born as an entrepreneur or you are not. I don't think it's one of those things that you really develop a knack for it. If that's not in your wiring, communication. Can you communicate vision?

Do you understand church planting and in that world? And so if you don't have those, if they're missing, most likely you're gonna get a red light, a not recommend.

Lee Stephenson: 00:07:03

Let me just say something in there, too. Cause I know that being on the assessor side of things, no one wants to go in there and get a red light. No, because it seems like.

Are you saying that I'm not fit for ministry or even I'm not fit for a lead position? And how do you usually respond to that?

Danny Parmelee: 00:07:23

We usually tell them, no, absolutely. Just because you get a not recommend doesn't mean you're not fit for ministry. You know, there are a lot of ministry opportunities out there.

You could be a lead pastor in an existing church. Maybe God's wired you to revitalize an existing church.

The giftings and the makeup and wiring of that is just different than what we're looking for that makes a good, successful church planter. And, you know, I think it's better to find that out then than down the road of trying to plant a church and it doesn't make it.

And, you know, I've seen it, and you've seen it too often where people have gone out, try to plant a church that probably really shouldn't, and it destroys them, maybe personally, maybe their soul in the way, you know, that they just. They're too Burdened. I've seen it destroyed. Marriages, relationship with kids. I've seen it get bad.

And we want to try to be proactive in that and help people decipher what God is doing and help them decipher the call at that point before major damage could be done. So that kind of represents the not recommendation. Then you kind of cross the line.

We have the next would be a yellow light, which is a conditional recommend, meaning we see the building blocks in your life. They're definitely there.

There are some that are just underdeveloped and you need to focus in for a season of time in strengthening and developing these specific areas before you consider planting a church. And I've seen everything. I mean, we see people with conditions.

It may be, hey, just work on your marriage for a little bit, pay off debt, maybe you need to refocus in and figure out your discipleship pathway a little more or work on your preaching. It can be a gamut of things I've seen from six months to 18 months.

And the idea is that the coach or the sending agent that comes with them is going to help them develop those specific areas that need strengthen over that time period. And then they can kind of reevaluate at that point. Is this still something we want to do? Is this what we sense God is calling?

And it's like, go for it. Then you got green light, which is, hey, we see all the building blocks here, they're all there. We don't see any of these with major deficiencies.

Now it really is, is this truly what God is calling you to do? And if so, do you have the courage to go make that happen? And so to me, that kind of classifies the assessment center way of doing it.

And it's an exhaustive experience, but I highly, highly believe in that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:10:18

Yeah. Cool. The next one that you had mentioned was behavioral interviews. And that is still intensive, but a much smaller amount of time commitment.

And that's usually done over maybe a lunch, maybe a three to four hour period and would probably resemble somewhat of an interview process that someone would go through in a church. And you can get a lot of good information.

The only thing with behavioral interviews is because it's a shorter amount of time, people can put their best foot forward.

That's the nice thing about assessment center is that when you're over that long period of time, you begin to kind of break down, people get tired, people.

Danny Parmelee: 00:10:59

Begin to show their true colors a couple days into it.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:02

The other thing, and I know I'm doing somewhat comparing here, but Assessment center compared to behavioral interviews is.

An assessment center is you're in a room with other church planners and you talk about putting a bunch of type A highly driven pastors nonetheless in a group and watch them all very opinionated, very opinionated, kind of all vying for leadership.

Danny Parmelee: 00:11:22

Everybody wants to be the quarterback type of people.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:24

Exactly. And so that's kind of helpful because when you're in a church plant, you're going to deal with some of those leadership and conflict issues.

So you get to see just a slice of it where in a behavioral interview oftentimes it's maybe a panel of three to four people. Maybe there is some one on one. But a lot of networks and denominations, they still do utilize just behavioral interviews.

Some that don't have the resources to pull off an entire assessment center do send people to. There's a number of different organizations out there and Converge is open as well to anybody can be part of that.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:01

If you were going to do a solid, maybe have the resource to an assessment center.

I do know for those that may be interested in assessment centers, a lot of organizations will allow you to use their assessment center if that's something you want to do now, the cost is more effective. I know for us in Converge it's always open. People can come and send their candidates and we'll assess them and give them a full report.

But if you were wanting to put together a behavioral interview, what are two or three critical things that you would want to get after to make a successful behavioral interview?

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:35

Yeah, so I think with the behavioral interview it is exactly that. What have you done in the past?

The behaviors, the different success, the different ministries that you've been in the past and how well you've done are going to be the things that kind of point to the future. The other thing is some of the. Even if you're not trained in some of the personality testing, you can have candidates take that.

So things such as Discount or Myers Briggs or there's even some church planning assessment tools out there like the isa. And I don't know if that like gateway leadership, you know, if anybody can take those.

But there's some of those different things that will at least enter into some of the conversations as you're having that with the potential planter and the potential planter's spouse would be. So I mean again, like I. I'm biasedly for assessment centers over behavioral interviews.

So I'm going to say, hey, do anything that you can, even if it's using another organization just to get a little bit more of that in depth and to have it done over time. What about you? What would you suggest?

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:42

I think I would put some level of theology alignment, wanting to make sure that that conversation happens either just before behavioral interview or during the behavioral interview as well.

To make sure that, hey, with the organization or group that you're looking at planning that not only are we aligned in philosophy, but you know that there's a doctoral alignment there as well and it shows in the way that you live your life. But I think you want to get to know them as much as you possibly can in that three hour, four hour window. What's their family life look like?

Do they live with balance in every area of their life? You know, it's not just in finances, but the way the pace of life that they run.

Do they understand when it's necessary to take a break and are they taking those necessary breaks?

You want to do reference checking if you're doing a behavioral interview as well and make sure that there's three or four people that are vowing for knowing this couple for a long time, long period of time, that they can vouch for them in that as well.

I know historically, I think for a long time people just went from the intuitive standpoint where it's like, let's go have lunch and let's just talk and I'll know by the time lunch is over if you can do this or not. I think that's good to get the conversation going.

But I think both of us would admit that there's some serious weaknesses, especially if you're looking at putting serious resources into a planter. You need to do your due diligence before you see this person with any major level of finances or people or any of that more than a gut feel, right?

Lee Stephenson: 00:15:35

And I have to confess that I do that at times where I'm the intuitive guy going, man, this person has what it takes. And I'll tell my wife and I'm all excited. I'm like, absolutely.

And they're going to go to assessment center and they are just going to knock it out of the park. And all of a sudden you begin to peel back some of the layers and you're like, oh my goodness, you know what? They don't have everything.

They may have, especially those that have elevated in the area of charisma and woo.

And they may be very high on the gathering side of things, but they're not entrepreneurial in the sense that they can put together systems and grow something from nothing. So even sometimes I'm So I always have to caution myself.

Danny Parmelee: 00:16:19

Don't get caught in the woo.

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:20

Don't get caught in the woo. But to look holistically, like you said, and even those other parts of it, they may even have the entrepreneurial stuff.

But if the wife isn't on board, and I can't say this enough, that doesn't mean the whole co pastoring thing, because I know that as far as inviting many couples to assessment, the wives are usually the most hesitant to take that step and they're so nervous and they end up loving it because for the first time they're getting reflected back into them, some of their gifts and abilities, whether they're used real specifically in the ministry or if it's to support their husband type of thing. But yeah, I think holistically looking at them is just a really important thing and not relying too much on. On just intuition.

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:09

Yeah, you may win a few, but you're going to lose some too. And you want to make sure you're counting the costs there. And self assessment, I mean, it's kind of obvious, right, Danny? I mean, we know.

I mean, scripture talks about that our heart is deceitful above all else, that our hearts can deceive us. And it's good to have other people speaking of this.

I mean, I've tried to live my life on the fact that Proverbs says that there's wisdom in the counsel of many. And I don't want to make any major decision in my life without seeking the counsel of other people and making sure that they're behind this as well.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:46

Yeah. And I think this goes back to a little bit of our discussion from the first episode. There's a certain amount of that. Yes. Within the church planter.

There is some of that confidence.

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:55

Yeah, totally.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:56

But I get a little bit nervous when it's like, hey, God told me to do this. And the reason that God told me to do this is because I can just do it better than everybody else type of thing.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:06

Don't trip over your ego there.

Lee Stephenson: 00:18:08

Exactly. Well, why don't you share a little even of your personal experience of assessment?

Maybe a few takeaways without giving away the whole assessment experience. But yeah, share a little bit of yours.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:23

For us personally, the assessment center, I mean, it was nerve wracking just knowing that we were going into a room for four days and people with clipboard are going to be walking around writing notes about us and poking holes and asking questions at the same time. It was a very welcome thing.

We kind of hit a moment in our Church planting journey, which I see happen more often than not, where we were going in one direction and we thought we were going to plant with one organization in this area of town. And in the end, God killed a vision and rebirthed another vision.

And it was a really hard season for us personally, because we were like, God, this is what you're calling us to do. Why aren't you opening these doors? And we ended up just putting everything on a halt.

And it was like silence for four months where we just didn't hear God speaking. We didn't know what we were doing. I pretty much transitioned myself out of my current position. I built a team.

And we'd make announcements like, hey, we're heading out to do this, and I'm going. I'm also out of a job now.

And so we ended up connecting at that point with Converge for the first time and began to hear of their story and how they planted churches and this assessment process. And we just went, this sounds awesome. And I mean, it came at a point where I began.

I was personally doubting, like, is this what God has called me to do? Like, I feel like he has. I feel like he's wired me. He's gifted me for this.

But there was doubt was beginning to creep in because God wasn't giving us that last piece. That door wasn't opening. And so we were like, God, this is kind of the last straw for us. Let's go. Let's see what God is doing here.

And so we went with really open hands going, I have no idea how this is going to end. And we walked in and we were just trusting that God was going to speak in that moment to us. And it was fantastic. I mean, it was hard.

It was a lot of sleepless nights. We had some really interesting conversations as a couple going through it. But at the same time, we made some great friends.

I'm still in contact years later with people we went through assessment center with. And there's just this bond that we have. Like, yeah, we did that together in a sick way, but it's there.

But when we got through it, and for us, we got that full recommend at the end of it, it was like, no, this is what God called us to do. Now let's go make it happen. And it was like, it just brought fuel to the flame that God had already put in there, that he wasn't done with us.

He had a vision for us, and it was just different than what we originally thought. And, man, we needed that. It was just the wind and the Sail at the exact right moment. That really pushed us forward in that process.

And that's why I'm such a big advocate for the assessment center process is, man, where else do you get in your ministry where you have seasoned people that have planted churches successfully standing around praying for you as a couple, interacting with you because they want what is best for you, they want what God is wanting to do, and they want that to be clear. And the assessors take it very serious. And for them to be able to stand behind you afterwards and go, man, you got this. We're behind you.

How refreshing that is. And I'm just so thankful that we went through that process.

Lee Stephenson: 00:22:02

Can you talk to speak to the objective nature of it?

So in other words, you said, like, hey, they're invested in you, so it's not like, limited number of spots or, well, we know you, so we're gonna pass you because we like you type of thing. So speak to the why the objectivity is so key to it.

Danny Parmelee: 00:22:25

Typically, you have at least one assessor per couple, if not more. And I know, like, when we came in, I think there were 13 couples altogether that were being assessed at this given assessment center.

I knew one assessor out of all the assessors. And I think there was. I think we were like 26 or 30 assessors in the room. And so we were getting critiqued and we were getting watched.

And we're getting feedback from people that don't know us. They're not invested in us relationally from that standpoint.

They haven't walked with us for years, and they're watching how we interact with other people. They're watching how we interact as a couple.

They're asking tough questions of us, both about our walk with God, about our leadership style, challenges we face, and how we've overcome those things, how God has revealed himself. They're giving us objective feedback on our preaching. They're giving us objective feedback on just how we carry ourselves during the week.

And so all of that was very helpful in making that final deliberation. Now, it was nice having one person there that knew us because they could speak to the context in which we were planting.

But they were very much going, hey, we're here to get your input on our candidate. And so there is a sense that this is a team approach and coming up with a defined plan and understanding who this couple is.

Lee Stephenson: 00:23:56

Yeah, I think for me too, just with the assessment center, it being objective, not saying, okay, we're just taking the top five. It's like, hey, if everybody in the Room passes. If everyone's a fail, they're literally looking at each individual person, I think.

Danny Parmelee: 00:24:12

How was your assessment experience?

Lee Stephenson: 00:24:14

Yeah, so we. So Emily and I, we were, you know, we were newly married. And so my wife, she's shyer, so she was definitely nervous going into this whole thing.

And as I shared before, she still had some question marks about, like, man, church planning. Are we sure, you know, we're gonna do this thing? And it was. It was a. It was a grueling time.

I remember just, you know, just even being intimidated by other people in the room that were older, that had ministry experience. And we were actually kind of in conversation similar to you with two different denominations.

And because I had a longer history with Converge, the church that we were at, you know, was Converge. I didn't even know what Converge was when I started going there.

But it's like, okay, well, we're going to kind of go down this path a bit then with the assessment center, especially since they had such a high, you know, track record of planting churches and they tied so much of that to the assessment. But I remember, I think it was the night before or the kind of the final night. And the director of the assessment center was just grilling me.

And he was like, don't you think that you're too young? Like, who's going to come to your. And I'm going, I don't know.

Danny Parmelee: 00:25:24

I think maybe I am too young.

Lee Stephenson: 00:25:26

And so that night, Emily and I went home and I said, we. I'm gonna call that other denomination right now. Cause they only do the behavioral interview.

So if we can just get by the like, four hour lunch interview like that. Cause this is not. We definitely got the red light. We're being sent home and they outed us. We're too young. We shouldn't be doing this.

This whole, you know. And then of course, we sit down with them and they're like, no, you have a full recommend. You have a green light. We see this in you.

And the director, the one who was, you know, grilling me, is like, I'd love to stay in contact with you. I can't wait to see what got. And I'm like, you know, Dr. Jekyll and, you know, hide here like, like, what is happening?

But just understanding that they really. They wanted to put the pressure on because they wanted. They really do care. And so I felt. And then it began to kind of click and to make sense.

Like, it's not just, hey, we just want someone to go through this and give them a pat on the back, they took very seriously and they cared about every couple to do that. And like you, I'm still in contact with other guys that were.

That I went through assessment with some that planted, some that are no longer in planting anymore because, you know, they went on to different ministries, and it's just. Yeah. Again, I know that this is coming across really, really biased, but I do believe that assessment is.

It's so important because when you hit even some of those tough points a year in or two years into the plant, you kind of can remember back and go, yeah, no. Other people said, so when you have that leader that say, no, I don't think you were qualified to do this in the first place, and you shouldn't have.

You at least kind of can go back to that and say, you know what? No. There was a group of people who objectively assessed and said, no, we believe in you. We think that you can do this.

Danny Parmelee: 00:27:14

Yeah.

And I think you hit upon something, too, that it's just funny in a way that, you know, when you're going through the assessment process, your assessors show no emotion. If they do show emotion, they show the opposite emotion than what you're wanting to sense.

You know, you get done preaching, you're wanting everybody to come down the altar and cry and repent, and they're sitting there with, like, no smile. They're not clapping. They're not, you know, and you're going, I just gave the best sermon ever. And you go like that for days.

You're going, this is terrible. And then that person that, you know, you're going all week going, this person hates me.

You know, at the end of the week, they're coming up and they're hugging you and they're praying for you. I think it just shows how serious they take their job of wanting to give you honest feedback.

Lee Stephenson: 00:28:04

Yeah. Before we close, talk about some interactions where people have said have gotten the red light and how they responded.

And I don't know if you have any specific stories of people who got the red light but thanked, Thanked you later, thanked the assessment center later because they got where they needed to be. Actually.

Danny Parmelee: 00:28:27

I know we've seen the full gamut of emotions displayed when people have been told you're not the point person. Some of it speaks to their maturity as well and trust and faith in the Lord. We've had guys literally jump up on the table and yell at us.

And the reason we didn't pass them was they had an anger issue and they're going, I don't have an anger issue. You're going, well, yeah, I beg to differ right now, but we've also seen guys, we've told them, and they just break down.

And it's hard because they felt like this is what God is doing. But one specific planter, I'm thinking of that we got a red light. I mean, we sat down. You're absolutely called to ministry.

You're gifted for ministry. We think you will have a fruitful life and ministry. We just don't see you as being the point guy.

And within a couple weeks after the assessment center, one of the people that was passed ended up getting connected with him, invited him to be on his plant team, and they ended up launching the church together, him operating as kind of a number two person. And he contacted us all back later, going, man, you guys are absolutely right. I'm loving life and loving what I'm getting to do at this point.

Thank you for saying the hard thing. And so to me, those are the stories you hope to see.

And I can tell you time and time again how God has uniquely orchestrated moments like that through the assessment process.

Lee Stephenson: 00:30:01

Cool.

Danny Parmelee: 00:30:02

Yeah.

But I think both of us would be adamant to our audience, like, if you're thinking of planting a church, really, really strongly think and position yourself to go through a assessment center, I think you owe that to yourself. I think you owe that to the call that you sense that God has placed on your life.

And I know every planter, even once you get through the assessment, there are tough questions that you're still wrestling with. And we want to tackle those questions here in our next episode. So thanks again for joining us with the unfiltered real church planning discussions.

Until next time, keep it real.