How do you know if you're called to plant a church?

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:09

Hey, welcome, everyone, to the unfiltered podcast for real church planting discussions.

My name is Lee Stevenson, and I currently have the privilege of being able to serve the church planting world, serving Converge, and overseeing church planting for all of Converge. And then with me is Danny Promoly. Say hi, Danny.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:31

Hi, Lee. How's it going?

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:32

It's going, man. Tell everybody a little bit about who you are and your background.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:36

Yep.

So I also work with church planting in Converge over Mid America, oversee that Region 7 state region, and it's privileged to be here talking just about church planting, sharing some of our experiences with one another. And so how far back do you want me to go? What do you want me to share as far as we're going to be talking about call stuff today?

You want me to jump into that or.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:59

Well, why don't we begin? How long you been in this role? I mean, both of us are actually fairly new to the roles that we've been in.

And what did you do prior to being in this role?

Danny Parmelee: 00:01:09

Yep. So this is very new and fresh for me. So really just started.

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:13

And for myself, I just moved in this role about two and a half years ago and transitioned from church planting, where my wife and I together planted a church out in East Mesa, Arizona. And you yourself?

Danny Parmelee: 00:01:29

d in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in: 2004

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:36

Yeah, I know for both of us working in the church planting world ourselves, wrestling with, you know, is this something God's calling me to do?

But at the same time, now working with a lot of church planters in cities and rural areas and urban corridors, I know that we face this question all the time. Like, you know, how do you know that this is what God is calling you to do?

Because it's a big jump to go from maybe I'm on staff at a church, maybe I'm working in the business world, all of a sudden feeling, you know, some angst.

I don't know what other word to use there, but to move out and make something happen in this world, what was the journey that God took you guys on that kind of solidified? Yes, absolutely. This is what God has called us to do.

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:31

Yeah, I'd love to share a little of my story. And I always preface my story by saying that each planter's call is different and unique.

And obviously, if listening to this podcast, then more than likely you're at least asking that question somewhat.

So I, like, I say, kind of disclaim it in that way, because each person's Story is different, but for me, I kind of had a radical conversion, came to Christ, surrendered my life to Christ. In college, my freshman year, I got involved with a campus ministry called crew.

And shortly after that, though, I ended up going to a church and got involved in this church.

And it was a church plant that was planting churches and kind of had my call to ministry as a combination of both being in that campus ministry, but then also being involved in this church.

And for me, in my call, kind of the time period I can even very vividly remember is the pastor of that church, his name was Steve Johnson, looked at me in the hallway and pointed at me and said, I think you should be a church planter. And then he just kept on walking.

And for him, maybe, you know, I'm not sure if he even remembers that moment or not, but God really did use that in my life to go, oh, my goodness, maybe God is calling me. You know, I'm immersed in this church that is about planting other churches. Maybe I am. You know, that's my call to ministry.

That it's not just I had already felt called to ministry, but specifically to church planting. And so that's really what, for me, kind of just began the process of asking some of those questions, like, why did he say that?

What were the different things that he saw in me? So, of course, I did ask him later, saying, hey, why? Why did you say that? What were some of the different things that you were noticing?

Lee Stephenson: 00:04:18

Now, you weren't. You weren't on staff yet.

Danny Parmelee: 00:04:21

I was not on staff at this church.

So he had seen, because I started stepping into some leadership positions at crew, and he would speak at CREW once in a while, but he saw I was a student president and I was kind of leading CRU at that time.

And so I think what he reflected back to me was that he was observing some of those entrepreneurial, some of those gathering types of qualities, some of the different maybe speaking qualities. And of course, because he was a pastor, that he was a church planter himself and heavily invested in church planting.

Over time, he was able to kind of even maybe just, you know, it wasn't like just this declarative statement, you've got to be a church planter.

But, you know, I think that, again, that God really was even in some ways using his prophetic voice to kind of stir in me that call to church planting. So honestly, for me, that really just kind of began the process of me bringing that really before God and in my own prayer life.

Now I'm single at this time. You know, I'm a sophomore in college, involved in ministry. I switched my major from elementary education to religious studies.

So just started to kind of prepare myself for ministry. And then for me, you know, the next step was going to seminary. I'd gotten married right after college.

My wife and I, we graduated from college, got married, and then I went to Bethel Seminary and really continued down that path because that's really. It was kind of like just continuing to kind of step through the process of that, going to seminary, getting the tools.

And then I also then did an internship with a church plant as one of my things while I was at Bethel. And for me, each one of these things was going to either be a confirmation or to kind of steer me in the other direction.

And as I was taking some of those different steps, it was kind of continuing to confirm in my own heart that's what brought me alive.

And I was seeing those gifts and abilities kind of come together both in my classes and things that I was studying and then especially the internship as well, being able to be part of a church plant from the ground up.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:43

So what was the time frame between that conversation where it's like the writing's on the wall, the pastor comes by, says hey, points at you two. You actually began to form a launch team and move forward and take practical steps.

Danny Parmelee: 00:07:00

So that pointing of me in the hallway was my sophomore year in college. So then finished up my undergrad, then went to Bethel Seminary for three years and then raised support.

So from: 2000

ing to the Assessment Center,: 2004

Lee Stephenson: 00:07:29

Ish.

Danny Parmelee: 00:07:29

Definitely. Yeah. So it wasn't like, hey, I feel called to plant a church, so I'm going to start tomorrow.

Lee Stephenson: 00:07:34

Yeah. So it wasn't an overnight bang, we're now starting a church type of thing.

Was there major hard conversations that took place between you and your wife when it came to, you know, sensing her call to this as well? How would you approach that?

Danny Parmelee: 00:07:48

Yeah, so this is, I love sharing this story so much. So. So when I really first had that encounter with the lead pastor saying, hey, I think you may be a church planner and just definitely a pastor.

I had just met my wife that year and she was involved with InterVarsity and we just started a little bit of a friendship and I told her that I felt called a full time ministry and more than likely, church planting. And that just about ruined my chances of ever dating her. She wanted nothing to do with it. She didn't want to. She didn't want to be a pastor's wife.

She didn't want to play the piano, do children's ministry, or do teaching.

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:28

Yeah, the classic.

Danny Parmelee: 00:08:29

So she was like, don't want that. Also, a bigger thing is that she grew up poor, homeless even, at times.

And everything that she knew about ministry and church planting was that there's no resources. You're just going to be poor for the rest of your life. So actually, the pastor and his wife had both of us over for dinner and said, you know what?

Church planning is so awesome. You're going to see God provide. I remember we didn't have any money, but there would be that bag of groceries that God would provide.

I'm like, you are ruining me here. You are ruining my chances with.

But it was really cool to see God work even in my wife's life or girlfriend at the time, to eventually come to this place where she was recognizing seeing these things. And honestly, her. Her call had to be equivalent.

She didn't have to say yes to dating me or to get engaged or to get married, because she knew that that was really the trajectory that we were on. And so she did say yes. And we'll talk about family stuff later.

I'm not saying that there wasn't reluctance or fear or sometimes just really a lot of questioning, because like I said, that was a number of years before we even launched and then before we even had stability.

And so for her, always having that fear of stability is something that really did play into even our own marriage, which, again, we'll talk about that in future episodes.

Lee Stephenson: 00:09:55

That's fantastic. Yeah, everybody seems to have a unique call that God does. I've never heard one pastor or one planter's call into ministry seem the same as the next.

I mean, I know in our lives, I grew up as a pastor's kid, so faith was a pretty easy thing. I understood the church inside out, probably to a fault at times.

And I can remember going through school, high school, college, kind of going absolutely not. Like, the last thing I want to do right now is be a pastor. And God just recklessly challenged me. Began to move in my heart.

Felt like God was calling me into ministry. Began that path, was a youth pastor. Youth pastored for almost six years at this one church. And I'm newly married.

Feel like God is probably leading us to a change. Don't know what that Is. And I'm working on my master's at the time. And we were running into some barriers with the size of our youth group. And.

And I was trying to figure out, how do we break through some of these barriers and continue to expand our reach in the youth ministry. And saw a class that was an elective class. Church planning and multiplication. Well, I was thinking multiplication.

I had no thought at all about the church planting side of things. And to this day, it still rocks me at core that I remember the Prof.

Standing up, the very first sentence out of his mouth was, the most effective way to reach people for Jesus is to plant a church. And there was like, use the old Bill Hybels thing. The holy discontent that rose up where I got angry. I was mad going, I've never heard this.

I'm working on my second Bible degree, grown up in the church my whole life, and have never heard this. And if this is true, why aren't we doing this? And I was just intrigued. I mean, the hook was sunk at that point in the fish's mouth.

And I could not get enough. And I remember going up to my professors. It was like a week intensive. They were adjunct professors. And I said, I know you guys are busy.

I know you're probably exhausted, but would you guys come over to our apartment and have dinner with my wife and I and just talk to us more about this? We're just full of questions. And one thing led to the next, and we're going, I think we're called to plant a church.

I remember coming home when the class was all done, and I looked at my wife, and I said, I think God's calling me to plant a church. And she goes, oh, no. It's like the reality sets in. And I think she understands. Understood it, too, because she's a pk.

Her dad's actually planted two churches, and so she understood what this is going to entail and the long journey.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:36

Yeah. What was her. Oh, no. Like, what was her personal experience with church planning from a child's perspective?

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:43

Both of them were positive. She had great, great positive perspective. They. Both of the church plants were successful. But I think she understood the.

The challenge and the amount of effort and energy that has to go into it is extreme. I mean, like, the one church that they planted, they started in a Italian restaurant.

And she tells stories like, after church service was over, we stayed and we filled salt shakers just to keep things going well. And she talks about having to put up sheets over the bar on Sunday mornings.

And she was running One of the kids classrooms as a 12 year old, you know, those were just. But it was still positive. But she understood the reality of the challenge that was set before us.

We began to pray and just say, God, if this is what you're calling us to do, show us. Like, you know, we really didn't know what else to do at that point.

And within a week of us beginning praying, we had somebody called us say, hey, have you ever thought about church planning? And I remember I was wigging out. Like I was like somebody bugging our apartment. We haven't told anybody this.

And that made us kind of go, okay, I think this is something serious that God is doing and how should we approach this? And we just began to write a list, like if we were to start a church our way, how would we do it?

And we began to put all these pieces on piece of paper and some of them were like, I wanted to be on a larger church staff for a season because I'd never been on a staff of a church or seen how a church, over a thousand people operated. It was a foreign world to me. And we wanted a season where we were really focused on college age or post college age adults.

And part of, because of my current present church situation, that was just a passion for me. We just began to pray through this list.

And two weeks later, God ordained a conversation where a pastor called me in Arizona and said, lee, we'd like to talk to you about xyz. And everything that they mentioned was on our list. And the big thing was we want you to plant a church after five years of helping us in these areas.

od is calling us. So we moved: 2004

And so it was a long process as well, trying to understand the culture and see what God was doing. When you think of planters walking through their call, what are similarities that you see between pastors in a planter's call?

And you know, let's talk for a moment about advice that we give to guys as well when it comes to processing that call. How do you process is this bad pizza that I ate the night before? Is this something that God's actually doing in our lives right now?

Danny Parmelee: 00:15:53

Yeah, I do think that one of the maybe themes that I do hear quite a bit is wrestling in the sense that there's maybe this intrigue even kind of like you said, or I said, like, wow, that's something really awesome. But then when the reality sets in of what you're actually being called to, there is a little bit of a wrestle. Wait, is this me? Is it not?

Do I have what it takes?

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:18

Should I. I just call it the oh, crap moment. We all have that moment. It's like, oh, crap, is this. Is this real?

Danny Parmelee: 00:16:25

Yeah.

I mean, it's different than like, yeah, you're called to this, like, amazing, awesome thing and there's going to be this red carpet that's rolled out in front of you that is definitely not church planning. So I think that wrestling. The other thing that you said from, From.

From your story, which I think is a common theme that I hear, which can have a shadow side to it, is holy discontent. So I want to talk about that a little bit because that was so.

So for me, there was a holy discontent, but it wasn't a negative or critical judgmental. So that the church that we were at, as I said before, they were a church plant. They were reaching people for Christ.

But there was an entire college section that we sat in in the church, and we just loved when it was the youth and the college that led worship there. So I could see that there was a little bit saying, you know what? There's even some.

Not even just stylistically, but there's some values that are slightly different with this next generation, that if someone else doesn't step up and step into this, then there may be a whole loss of generation. Now, I've also seen, and I'm sure you have too, of guys that are just judgmental thinking.

And there's this pride and ego driven, like, I can just do this better, I can preach better, I can do this cooler, yada, yada, yada. And to be honest, a lot of church planters do have that. And it's part of the way, I don't know, that God created. And yet there's the sinful side.

I see that it just goes really bad really quick. So I don't know if you want to speak to that kind of the holy discontent and how there can be that godly positive, driven.

But then there's also that sinful side to it.

Lee Stephenson: 00:18:09

Yeah, I think it's any so many things in our lives as leaders that you have to learn how. How to manage the tension. And I think this is just another one of those areas that God somehow implants into a leader's heart, a quiet confidence.

I don't know how else to verbalize it, but this sense, like, no, God has wired me to do this, he's gifted me to do this. Let's go do this. But the challenge is you got to stay. You know, we say it all the time, but it's true.

You've got to stay in a position where you're constantly reliant on God and trusting that he's going to be out in front of you. And so we have to balance, understand the gifts that God has wired us with and given us that those don't get in the way.

And we become cocky, thinking we can do this in our own strength. And we sit back and we. We wait on God's timing, we wait on God's provision, we wait on him to open those key doors.

And so you've got to keep that in check. And to me, there were a few people in my life that I brought into my inner circle in those early days that helped me keep those things in check.

If you don't have that, it's very easy for ego to get in the way and drive that call to a place that ultimately is going to lead to an unhealthy position. You might have a great success early on, may have a great run, but, I mean, you and I have both seen it where these guys.

Guys fizzle out and families are burned and marriages are left broken, because I believe there wasn't that reliance on God to lead. And we got more confident in our own position as we move forward.

Danny Parmelee: 00:20:04

Yeah, speak a little too, about guys that maybe that you've worked with, that you've seen, like kind of the reluctance or maybe the wrestling. But you just. I mean, you can see it as a third.

How do you even walk through with them, some of that pushing them, but not pushing someone into something that they shouldn't, but helping them to overcome each other.

Lee Stephenson: 00:20:26

Oh, great. Yeah, great, Great question. I think some of it is helping them see the winds that God has provided already in their life, helping.

I know for us, we had to revisit call to ministry, but also, who has God brought into our lives that have encouraged that call? And what specifically are they encouraging in us? You know, is it. Are they reinforcing our leadership? Are they reinforcing specific gifts?

You know, is it a teaching gift? Is it something of that sort? And it's going to be more than just one.

You know, if this is something God is, you're going to find that there's this pattern, like every six months, like God seems to bring somebody else in our lives that's reinforcing that gift. That he's part of. And so I like to go down that road with guys that are sitting there going, I don't know. I mean, there's.

I don't know which one I'd want more. Like, you know, you want the guy that's just like, no, we're going to go and take charge and we're just going to make this happen no matter what.

Or do you want this person that's got a little more humility kind of going, I don't know. They may be living in reality. And I think that's a good thing too, because it is tough. It's not an easy thing.

And you want to make sure that people are living in reality as they kind of move forward in this call. I think too, taking time just to pray, you have to remind people, is it a courage issue? Don't do this.

Because it's just a lack of courage to me, that diminishes our faith, that diminishes the power of God that he's working in through us. And so sometimes it's just walking by and helping encourage them to have the courage to step out.

And once they make that initial step they see God provide, then it's like fuel that just keeps it going. How about yourself? How do you approach those things?

Danny Parmelee: 00:22:18

Yeah, I'm the same way where it's like, man, I love the take charge guy. That's got confidence.

And yet at the same time, I mean, you look at the different biblical characters, you think of Moses who goes, I don't have what it takes. And God's like, I know you don't. That's the whole point. So I can be here. Or even some of the prophets, Ezekiel, whatever. There's that reluctance.

So, man, it's kind of, it's a split for me. You know, it's usually these guys that are just take charge, which probably would have been more of myself, even though there was a wrestling.

But at that point of going, yeah, I think that I am called to church planting, then I probably erred more on the side of the like, ego. I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this better than anybody else has ever done it before.

And then I heard people say, well, don't worry, God uses church planning to kind of like take the edges off. And that is absolutely true. And I'm sure we'll be able to share some both of our stories where it's like, man, God does it.

Even though he's working through you, he works on you during that process. Because you are just. You're brought to a place of complete dependence upon him completely.

Lee Stephenson: 00:23:25

And I'm glad you brought in the Moses story because to me, the character, it's always been reinforced as Joshua. For me, I think about Joshua, he's. He's the warrior. I mean, he's the guy that constantly is leading the battle charge.

And I find it so fascinating that when Moses departs and Moses is now gone and Joshua is appointed the new leader, was the first thing that God challenges him is in his courage and say, hey, be strong and courageous, like you're going to lead these people in just the same way that I was with Moses. I'm going to be with you.

And I find it interesting you don't think of Joshua when you think of the battle of Jericho and scouting out the land like that. He lacked courage. And yet that seems to be the one thing that God has to come back and remind him of. And so I do want.

I love seeing guys that have a confident humility, where it's like, I believe that this is what God is doing. I have no idea how this is going to happen.

And they have to rely on God to remind them, no, they don't have courage, but they have the courage to step out.

Danny Parmelee: 00:24:31

Yep. Cool.

Lee Stephenson: 00:24:32

Yeah.

Now, I would say too, for both of us, as we've gotten to know each other over the years, one of the hallmarks that solidified that call to ministry was really the assessment process. And I think the assessment center for both of us was such an encouraging thing. It was a hard thing, but I'm so very thankful that we did it.

And my guess is that you would say absolutely the same. And so I want to invite everybody to come back. Thanks so much for being with us here.

As our inaugural episode of unfiltered and real church planting discussions, we're going to step into episode two, talking about the assessment. And there are multiple different ways that assessment is done.

And we're going to talk about the ins and outs and the positives and negatives of those different assessment processes, but also talk from our personal experiences of how the assessment center really worked and was an encouraging thing for us, our spouses, and really ultimately the ministry that God would birth from that. So let me invite you to come back episode two, as we talk about that. Until next time. Keep it real, guys.