Facing a personal, financial or leadership crisis

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:09

Well, welcome to Unfiltered Real Church Planting Discussions. My name is Danny Parmelee. I work with Converge Church Planters in Mid America.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:18

And I'm Lee. Lee Stevenson. I have the privilege of overseeing our church planting movement with Converge around the nation.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:25

And last episode, we talked about some key questions, some critical questions that church planters are asking. And one of them was what will be my most difficult challenge?

And we got through with that episode and talking about personal and financial and leadership ones, but we didn't get into specifics.

And especially since this is called Unfiltered, we wanted to take an opportunity to kind of circle back and to share even some different examples from our life. And I know, Lee, that you had kind of alluded to one, but then you didn't go into it as much.

Now that we have a little bit more time for this episode, why don't you share what were you thinking of when you were.

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:02

Yeah, I appreciate Danny. And as I'm talking, I can get so know, I can get so immersed with the conversation.

If there's something that you want me to go after even deeper, let me know. Our journey really started right about the time we became two years old as a church.

And the circumstances were unusual in the fact that we had met the first two years in a movie theater. And in that movie theater, it had been a great location. I mean, just a lot was going well, but we outgrew it.

And nothing was the way that you read it should be. Like, we had two services. Our services were 50 minutes long with only 10 minutes turnaround. So we did it. You can do it. And the church grew.

I mean, we used to advertise the fact that we have the shortest service in the city. So your friends have no excuse not to sit through it. So invite your friends. And, you know, we made it fun.

But it came to a point space was just an issue. And so we had made the decision, it's time to move the church.

And we had an opening at a high school only a mile, maybe mile and a half down the street, but it was on the other side of the freeway. And as you know, a lot of research has been done that, you know, freeways can become a natural barrier, so can railroads and things of that sort.

And it became true in our life as well. And anytime you have a change, people are going to exit. I mean, that's just part of the experience that we had. So there are some people exited.

s if every chair was taken to: 1300

And so it swallowed us up in a lot of ways, changed the dynamics, went from two services to one service, and finances began to tank. As our finances began to tank, I ended up going through some personal health challenges.

And one of those, it began just with some weird things happening. Dental work and teeth breaking and cost us $8,000 just to have two teeth replaced. And then I ended up going on a bike trip.

And on the bike trip, had a great week, came home, decided, hey, let's take some of our leadership, let's go bowling, have a, you know, just team unity. I collapsed on the bowling alley.

And in the midst of that, we went to the orthopedic surgeon because I knew, like my knee, something serious was wrong. I didn't know what it was.

I had previously torn an acl, had that reconstructed, went to the orthopedic and the orthopedic basically said, yeah, you need micro fracture surgery. Which is a pretty. I mean, it's not a huge, crazy major surgery, but there's enough detail. I'd be out a few weeks and then I get going.

He went in and did surgery, and my wife said he walked out of the OR with his eyes as big as saucers going, I have no idea what your husband did to his knee. And that began this long road of. I became a national case study and my doctor flew to Boston, where two top orthopedics in the world took 10 cases.

My case was one of those that was chosen. They came up with kind of a weird, crazy sci fi type of procedure to do. At the time I had it done, it had only been done to.

Been allowed in the United States for two years.

And basically they harvested my stem cells for three months and they covered the knee joint and pig tissue, injected the stem cells under that, hoping it would regenerate new cartilage. And then they relocated the front of my shin bone.

So the specific area where your patella tendon attaches the front of the shin bone, they notched it out, they cut through the bone, moved it up and over and put two screws through it.

I was bedridden for weeks and had to be hooked up to what's called a passive motion machine that just slowly moves your leg back and forth for 12 hours a day. And out of that. So 12 weeks bedridden.

I preached from a wheelchair for two months, had to walk with a special brace for a year and crutches and canes and all that we get to the one year mark and find out the surgery didn't work the way it was supposed to, and had a lot of questions like, what's going on here?

Ended up finally, through that process, got diagnosed with what was called sonc, spontaneous osteonecrosis of the knee, which means that the bone in the knee joint was literally dying. And it was serious enough that if the body didn't reverse itself, there was a chance of amputation. And so we began interviewing amputees.

I mean, we were at that place trying to understand this world that may.

Danny Parmelee: 00:06:09

Become reality besides physical. If I can cut you off there, what's going through heart and mind, spiritually and emotionally?

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:19

Well, to make it more difficult going through that, the physical challenges and pain. You know, I was living with chronic pain at that point. My body began to act weird. I found myself wrestling with depression.

I found myself just really struggling. Can I keep going with this? And I knew, like, I just knew I wasn't processing life. There was a somewhat.

I wouldn't say a crisis of faith, but there was challenges to my faith. I'm like, God, we're two and a half years into this. Like, three years into this. What gives? Like, we're doing what you've called us to do.

We're being obedient. And so there were a lot of doubts that were becoming reality.

And come to find out that out of that, I got to the moment where I looked at Melissa, my wife, and I said, I gotta go to the doctor and get some other things checked. Let's do some blood tests. If nothing shows up in the blood test, then I'll go see a shrink to help me deal with what's going on here. I was grieving.

I mean, I was grieving the fact that as a visionary, I had a very specific vision for what I thought parenting fatherhood would look like. I was an athlete. I was a college athlete. And even to this day, my kids have never seen me run or jump. And that was devastating.

I always dreamed about teaching my kids how to ride a bike. I couldn't teach my kids to ride a bike. And so I had to almost reprogram my mind to what parenthood would feel like for me.

But in that process, I got diagnosed with a hormone deficiency and went under treatment. And it wasn't until we moved to Orlando that I found out that my doctor had actually mistreated me.

And that treatment had shut my pituitary gland off.

And my stats and challenges with the depression and things like that were related to this but then it began a whole new gamut of challenges to the point that they began looking at cancer and brain tumors and things of that sort. We finally got it straightened out, but it's been years of this long, drawn out physical battle and, you know, more. So, I mean, we talked about it.

I mean, I've taken philosophy classes on it, but living it. Our body is so much more connected to our spirit than we give credit to. And the physical ailments I walked through were incredibly challenging.

Me too, on the spiritual side as well. Understanding who God was in the midst of my pain, wanting to know, did he care? Was he going to do something about this?

Those were very relevant questions that I had to wrestle through. And the passage that God gave me in the midst of that really was Second Corinthians, chapter one.

And to kind of sum it up, where Paul is writing, he talks about the fact that in our pain is where we're comforted so that we can bring comfort to others in the midst of their pain. And it was like I was reading that. It's a passage I've read over and over and over and over again.

But for some reason God brought it to a new light and enlightened me to it in a different way. I came to realize that pain is actually a blessing in our lives and that it's in our pain that we come to understand God's comfort.

And if we don't have pain, we're not going to experience. And I don't know about you, but I know for me I want to know that side of who God is.

And the only way to understand that side of God is you've got to walk through pain in order to experience his comfort. And so I feel like God has taken me down that journey of life now in the midst of all the physical pain and the spiritual challenge.

It was a financial strain on us, I think in that about three year gap I had. I think we. I think I had five different surgeries in two and a half years.

And most of a lot of that, I mean, outside of insurance, we paid somewhere close to $25,000 straight out of our pocket as a church planter. We didn't have money. And I can remember us sitting there going, well, our goal is just pay off the next bill.

And we're trying not to take on extra debt. And step by step, every day was a day of faith. And somehow at the end of it, we got through it and never actually had any debt.

And I still to this day have no idea how it happened. I say God multiplied the loaves and the fish in our lives because I'm pretty good with numbers, and I've done the numbers, and they don't make sense.

I still don't to this day know how God made that work. And so I share that because I want guys to understand, like, it's okay. Pain is real. It happens. You're going to face obstacles.

Everybody's going to be unique. But I find that everybody has a story of what God has done and challenged.

While we were walking through this challenge, I had one of my leaders kind of turn against me, and it was somebody that helped us plant the church. He was now a new elder in our church as we just had kind of formalized our elder board.

And it got personal in the fact that it was all surrounding my recovery. And I'm thankful that I had a group of guys that loved me enough, that stood up for me because.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:07

Was he asking you to step down because of your health?

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:10

Are you saying or no? But basically, the argument began behind scenes when I wasn't there, that I needed to use all my vacation time for my recovery.

And then basically I needed to be back or I wasn't going to get paid. And the rest of the elders kind of challenged him. And it got to a point where it became contentious even when I wasn't in the room.

And when I got back, it didn't matter what was said. I couldn't win. And the Lord resolved it. And I ended up leaving the church gracefully through that process.

But it felt very personal that, you know, when you're down, you're getting kicked, and nobody likes to be kicked when you're down already.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:53

Were you, during that time, were you wondering yourself if you should hang it up or not?

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:59

I would say there were moments, yeah, there were moments that you're sitting there going, God, I can't do this anymore. I don't know how we're going to keep this going. And that maybe I didn't even know if I'd walk again.

You're preaching from a wheelchair and you feel humiliated partly because, I mean, my.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:19

Legs doesn't really fit the attractional model.

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:21

No, it doesn't. It doesn't. My legs stuck up in front of me, and everybody's looking at the bottom of my shoe.

And I graduated from the wheelchair to preaching from a rocking chair. And that just felt grandma ish. Sitting up on the stage in a rocking chair preaching. I needed help getting out to the stage and back from the stage.

And you're just sitting there going, this is humiliating, especially when you're in your young 30s at that point. And I'm dependent on everybody. I had to have somebody come babysit me at my house so my wife could go get the groceries.

I mean, I was that dependent upon other people and. And God just. He taught me and met me in the midst of that. And I can tell you he's real.

I mean, I feel like I've walked through Season of Fire and know he's there. And we still have a battle. It's not over. I know that I have more surgeries coming down the road.

I'm now under constant doctor's care for the pituitary gland and the outcomes of that doctor's treatment for me. But I know that God is gracious. I know that he is good. And I have no reason to ever doubt that.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:41

Well, thanks for being willing to just kind of share that. And yeah, there may, like you said, there may be some guys that are going through some stuff right now, and it may not be the exact same thing.

It may not even be physical ailments, but to continue just to lean into it and allow God to use it to shape you.

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:58

Yeah, I mean, the disciplines helped me, Danny. In the midst of that, I journaled my emotions, and that was very freeing to be able to verbalize what was going on inside.

It was a way for me to get it released. I couldn't exercise, so the things that I love to do to get that release, I couldn't do. So I had to learn some new habits.

I had to learn some new disciplines. I would encourage anybody that's out there. If you're walking through, find somebody that loves you and cares for you.

Find somebody that you can trust to speak truth into your life. It may be a Christian counselor. Don't be ashamed of that. There are enough things going on, even chemically, that sometimes can get off.

It's okay to have some chemical help to get back to where you need to be. But I think if you can talk from a place of being real, allow your church to see the hurt. Don't hide behind it.

Danny Parmelee: 00:16:03

Yeah, that was going to be. My next question is. Well, one is maybe somewhat superficial, but I'm just curious. Did the church grow, decline, stay the same?

That's just number wise. But then tell me how the church learned through it or how you chose to not maybe always put on the God's got a greater plan.

I'm in a wheelchair, but at least I'm not quadriplegic or whatever.

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:30

Yeah, I'll start on that. Side of things. First. I wanted to be raw. I wanted to be authentic. I wanted people to see how you can.

I felt like God put us in this position to help show people how to suffer well. And so I wanted to be an example of what suffering can look like and trusting God in the midst of that. And it was hard.

I mean, there were days I had to go stand on stage. I was in incredible pain. And I'm like, God, I don't want to do this today.

And God would show up and he'd give me the strength, and I'd just be real and be raw. And I know it touched people's lives. I had to lean on my team and realize I couldn't do it all.

And I had to drop the Superman syndrome and realize it's not about me. I need to be a team developer. I need to focus in on and release these guys to lead at the level that God has wired them to lead as well. And I had to.

I had to balance. I didn't want to come across as woe as me. You know, I really thought. I didn't want to be an Eeyore. I wanted to be real. I wanted to be authentic.

I wanted people to see that we were living in pain, we were being challenged. But our faith in God was not superficial. Like, it was real. And the church exploded. I mean, it's crazy, but then I.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:08

Still can't get the image out of my mind of you with the wheelchair, with the shoe. I've seen the pictures.

Lee Stephenson: 00:18:13

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it was nuts. So it was nuts. So the church exploded. We grew at an astounding rate.

And I sit there and go, okay, God, I need to just stay out of the way. You know, keep me out of the way on this. But it's not easy. I mean, I gained 40 pounds during that season because I was stuck in a chair.

And that takes. And I had metabolic issues because of the hormone stuff.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:44

Yeah. Wow. It's crazy.

Lee Stephenson: 00:18:46

It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. I think my word of advice again is keep your disciplines. Don't shut down. Don't push people out. Allow people to help you.

People in our church did rise. I mean, I had home projects that had to be done, and people showed up and did them. I mean, weeded our yard. They raked the gravel.

I mean, we hung wood, gave us a new ceiling on our back porch. People wanted an opportunity to serve. And people, God used them to serve us and help us.

During that time, people watched our kids, People brought us meals, and, you know, I, I, I'm very, very thankful for that.

Danny Parmelee: 00:19:31

Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you for sharing that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:19:33

Absolutely. Absolutely. And talk to us, Danny, a little bit from your side of the story.

I know that yours not the same as ours, but you guys have walked through some things too that were challenging and hard and how, Talk to us, your story. How did you learn to overcome some of those things?

Danny Parmelee: 00:19:48

Yeah.

So I think the one that comes to mind that I had talked about in the previous episode just about a little bit, and I use the word leadership backlash and maybe that's not the best descriptor of it, but basically what had happened is that we were a young church, we were growing, we were maybe in about year four and still with not a lot of finances and resources, and yet there was more and more people that were coming to Christ. The church was growing and I needed help, but I didn't have a budget to hire staff. So we decided to kind of do this internship, pastoral residency.

And I found three guys that were ministry bound and I made the mistake of giving them the title pastor. Okay.

So they had full time jobs, they raised a little bit of financial support and they didn't have the training or the skills to probably have that title or the maturity to have that title. But I didn't have a paycheck so I gave him the title instead. And I thought, oh, that's a good.

And it became clear pretty quickly on that this was creating an issue and part of it honestly wasn't even fair to them because people were saying, oh, well, you're a pastor, so you should be able to respond to me right away. You should be able to help me through this. And they weren't able to. So then eventually that came back to me and then they were discouraged.

I was unfairly upset at them because they couldn't do it and yet they didn't have the time. So it was just kind of a mess. Two of them kind of slowly came to their own realization, this is not going to work.

So I'm going to kind of remove myself from the situation.

However, with the third person, they really felt ministry bound and this was kind of their path and their understanding was this is my stepping stone.

So even though we had, we did do a time bound thing of saying, hey, we're going to give us a two year shot, their understanding was it was two years and or earlier than that, if we could also pay them, they could quit their other job. And that was kind of, you know, they would be able to do ministry stuff.

And I was recognizing that One, what they were offering, what they were bringing to the table isn't actually what the church needed at that time. So the three kind of practitioners, two of them kind of left. The one that was left wasn't filling the gaps and the voids that we actually needed.

And so for me, I had to wrestle with that decision of at the end of that two years and we were at 18, we were at the 18 month mark to say, hey, this isn't going to work. We need to end your residency, there's not even going to be any financial support for you.

And to be honest, we need to hire a completely different role in different position. So I wrestle with that a lot. I didn't have.

This is the first time ever crossing this type of thing because essentially it's like you're kind of letting someone go, but you're kind of not. I don't know how they're going to respond to it.

And I got, you know, coaching from a couple different areas, but I was so nervous, especially because this person had relational influence within a church that's. I don't remember our size exactly. I want to say a couple hundred, maybe 300. I don't think we were to the 400 mark yet.

But I'm thinking this actually could be the end of the church.

I say no to this person who everybody loves because they're kind of the story like, hey, they came to Christ in the church, they're being discipled, they're being raised up, and they have the pastor title. And people loved him and loved his wife as well.

And I'm thinking, okay, I have this really, especially as I'm talking with other people, this real clarity that this person's pastoral internship is done, but I don't know how they're going to react to it.

And so I still remember sitting there and having this discussion saying, we're at the 18 month part, we'll fulfill our 24 months, we'll continue to pay you the small amount that we are there, but there's no longer going to be a position for you. And it just like exploded right there.

And then it became like all sorts of other stuff and really hard where I really did think again, like, all right, they could take half the church with them, plant somewhere else, badmouth me, all these different things. And it was hard.

And I would say that there was probably the three to four months leading up to that point that was really hard as I'm having these discussions and not discussions with anyone else within the church. It was all outside people Trying to kind of understand what to do.

But then, of course, then once it, you know, once that decision was made and as they began to, like, tell people their.

Their understanding or their perspective of it and how that, you know, really, I don't want to say undermined my leadership, but kind of, you know, that that maybe wasn't their absolute intention, but kind of like, you know, sharing that they thought it was a wrong decision, that they. That they felt misled in the whole thing, that, you know, they had sacrificed so much, which is actually a true thing. They had sacrifice so much.

But, hey, this is what was best for the church at that time. And having a job at the church is not right. It really is a privilege and it's a calling and it's just not working out.

And then to walk through that with other people that also didn't understand. And me being young myself, so I wasn't even 30 years old yet, so I'm 20 something, dealing with all that.

And it was the word for me to best describe it is lonely.

So even though the church is growing and lots of good things are happening, and I even have coaches and mentors, I've got my wife, but I just felt so lonely during that time.

And I didn't know if this decision that I was making, I mean, I felt like this was right, but I was also thinking this could be the end, and if it's the end, was that really the right decision? Now things ended great in the sense, or at least from my perspective, they were still very hurt. They left the church.

No one actually from the church left, which was amazing.

Lee Stephenson: 00:26:10

Yeah, you didn't expect that at all.

Danny Parmelee: 00:26:12

Yeah, I didn't type of thing. But I think that there was maybe enough, I guess, respect or understanding from people in the church that, you know, that there wasn't that.

And, you know, probably as much as they were sharing their story and their perspective, it was more out of hurt than anything else. You know, it was not an accusation, you know, of like, you know, anything like super unethical or anything like that. But it was still. It was hard.

It was a really, really lonely time.

And I guess my biggest thing of learning through that was that when you have to make those hard decisions, even if it feels really lonely in that time, if it really is in line with God's word, that it's biblical and it's the right thing, make the right decision, and it probably was right even for their lives and the different places that God brought them.

And certainly I can say without a shadow of a Doubt it was the right decision for the church, because right after that decision, a couple other key things kind of fell into place. And really, actually the church just actually took off after that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:27:18

What do you think the Lord taught you in that season?

Danny Parmelee: 00:27:22

Yeah, I think it really was a faith and dependence.

As much as all of us would say, we don't want to get political, there's no doubt that in my mind, I was starting to go, okay, well, if they leave and that couple goes with them and they're friends with them, that's politics. And in my own mind, even though it was clear, okay, this is not the right position for the person or position for the church right now, they need to.

This needs to come to an end.

It's what I need to do and to step into that and to be okay knowing that even there's going to be hurt and that people are going to say bad things, you know, about you. And I mean, I hate that. I hate when I hear other people say, I was hurt by the church. And then it'd be like, now I'm that story.

Now I'm that, you know, I'm the hurt. I'm the hurt. I'm the person that did that. And.

And that was hard for me, too, because I did care for him and really did have high hopes, you know, brought him with me to exponential, was hoping that, you know, he would be one of our church plants or that he would be one of our campus pastors. And so to watch all of that, and the story was really cool. It would have been one of those poster child stories to say, here's how it went.

Lee Stephenson: 00:28:35

And I think some of that's the price that you have to carry just being the leader. You know, that if somebody doesn't lead this, somebody else will. And God has called you to be the primary leader.

That part of that comes those challenges. But also you have a target, both from a spiritual perspective, but also the personal side of things.

Any last words of advice that you give somebody that is walking through maybe a personal, financial, or a leadership crisis right now?

Danny Parmelee: 00:29:04

I think it's not to make decisions too quickly.

So I were to think, even in your situation, there's probably times where you could have said, I'm just gonna write this letter of resignation and do this, or I'm gonna do that, or even for me, if I did it in a wrong sort of way.

So I just think sometimes to slow down and to get some wise counsel from, especially from outside sources and maybe people that are a little disconnected from the church. That's, I think, a really helpful thing.

Lee Stephenson: 00:29:32

Yeah. And I like that to piggyback on it.

I think as a pioneering type of personality, like there's a grit factor that church planters have, which is a huge strength. It can become a weakness when you're walking through these things because you can alienate yourself. Because I can get through this.

Danny Parmelee: 00:29:53

Right.

Lee Stephenson: 00:29:54

I would encourage you not to do that. You know, it. I didn't realize, I think, until after the fact how tired and worn out and hurt I was down in my spirit.

And it took good friends and close confidants to help me bring healing back into my life. And so I'm glad I didn't make any major quick reaction decisions during that time. And I think that's part of God's grace.

But if you're going through one of those challenges right now, my biggest advice is trust God. He's good. And even when the circumstances may cause you to question it, doubt may creep in. He is who he is and he will establish his kingdom here.

And that we can look forward to.

Danny Parmelee: 00:30:46

Yeah, and I would even say with that too, that that doesn't mean that God would have you persevere in that, in that position. You know what I mean?

Because there are planters out there where maybe the wise counsel from outside truly is, or God is speaking to you that, hey, you do need to transition out or to pass this along in order for your own health or for your family or for the health of the church.

So it's not just to say, because I know we pride ourselves in that a lot or the people that you're going to hear from are those that overcame the adversity. But sometimes overcoming the adversity really is.

Lee Stephenson: 00:31:17

To change and transform yourself, which goes back to what we've heard said over and over and over again. God cares more about your character than he does your occupation. And you have to come to a place. Do you really believe that or not?

Well, this is a great conversation and glad you joined us as we took some time to just talk about the ins and outs of crisis and obstacles and how they've affected us as leaders and our families, our lives.

And it's been great and we look forward to having you next time on our unfiltered conversation as we're going to explore models of church planting and different ways that you can go about it. Thanks for being with us. And until next time, keep it real.