Two more critical questions church planters wrestle with

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:09

Hey, welcome to unfiltered real church planning discussions and a place where you get what you get and you can't throw a fit. So I'm Lee Stevenson, and I am the executive director of church planning for Converge, overseeing church planting for our national movement.

Along with me, my co host, this is Danny. And Danny, say hi.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:33

Hello, everyone. Danny Parmalee here. I work with church planters in Converge Mid America, our Mid America region, and excited to be here.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:40

Yeah. We left off the last episode talking about key questions that church planters have a tendency to wrestle with.

And we talked specifically through three of kind of five key questions. So we've talked through, how do I get paid?

You know, when a planter goes through an assessment process, they decide, yes, got a green light, we're going forward. There's always that gulp, like, oh, no, now it gets real. And how are we going to make money? Second key question was, how do I make that transition?

Whether or not you're on staff or even out of the corporate world, making that transition is important.

And then also, we talked a little bit, finished off last episode, talking about how this affects the family dynamics and some key things to think through when it comes to your marriage and even the relationship that you have with your kids and protecting that relationship as well. I want to pick up Danny where we left off, and I want us to begin talking a little bit about tribal alignment.

In other words, one of the questions that a lot of planters have to wrestle through is, will I have a tribe? In other words, who. Who should I pair up with? Should I pair up? Is this something I want to go on my own? And do I know more recent?

We've heard it put this way that there's kind of a NASCAR way of planting that, you know. In other words, we want to see how many stickers that we can put on the car and kind of show our sponsors. In other words, why don't you get us going?

Talking a little bit about tribal alignment advantages, disadvantages, and why somebody may want to lean that way.

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:18

Yeah, I think the first question that guys are kind of asking is if at all they'll be involved in a tribe or if not.

And church planters, kind of by nature, they're kind of the cowboys and pioneers in your church planting because you want to kind of blaze your own trail and cut your own path.

And so for some of them, they feel that the greatest freedom that they can have is to not be a part of any network or denomination or sponsor or tribe. That way, they can just do absolutely anything that they want. And there's maybe a little bit of an appeal to that.

I think that it's less and less now, though, that we're seeing that more guys are seeing that those that align with a tribe, with a network or denomination, are actually planting stronger and healthier churches. And so because they're aware enough to say, well, I want to be as fruitful and as successful as possible, there's probably something to this.

And of course, I mean, we're totally biased in the sense that we're converged, we're a tribe.

And so guys that are saying, hey, I want to make it alone, I'm even at the point of saying, even if it is not converge, you really ought to think of doing this.

The small advantage that you may have from complete freedom is nothing in comparison to actually having people come around you and support you and really kind of walk this journey with you. So I would say to answer your question directly of the why go it alone? It would just be to have complete freedom.

The why not is, man, you're going to hit some of those bumps. You're going to hit some of those challenges. And to have a group of people around you that really support you is really, really an important thing.

So I think the question then kind of becomes the who? And as I interact with Planters, I do tell them, I will say, pick your tribe well. Don't just be chasing after who's gonna give you the most money.

And maybe it is who you already have relationships with, but maybe it's not as well, too. Maybe there's a reason that you're looking for a different tribe.

And I'll always say, hey, we would love to have you be a part of Converge, but honestly, what we want most of all is that you're just connected with someone.

Lee Stephenson: 00:04:33

What things do you think Planters, if they're leaning towards alignment with a tribe, what are the factors that drive alignment? What are they? What's the grid?

Or, you know, maybe somebody's not thinking about a grid, but what would be a grid that you think planters should think through when it comes to making an alignment choice?

Danny Parmelee: 00:04:53

So the three that I see most often are theological alignment, model alignment, and money.

Lee Stephenson: 00:05:01

Yeah, why don't you explain those?

Danny Parmelee: 00:05:03

So there's going to be those that say, hey, I am. We'll use, for example, I think that extra 29 is a great example of this.

They have theological distinctives, and so there are guys that also have those theological distinctives. So for them, that is the top priority in aligning with a tribe.

So they would say, hey, that's going to be the group for me, because there's this theological alignment. I know that in this circle, there's going to be agreement as what kind of drives, even vision values of the. Of the network kind of as a whole.

There's other groups where they are driven a bit more by model. So I believe, and I'm not 100% familiar, but even with ARC, for example, that they emphasize more launching large, and that's their model.

And so guys that are like, hey, I want to be part of that. And they may be different places theologically, but hey, this is the model type of thing. And so there's kind of a driving point there.

And then the third one, which is the one I caution against the most, is guys will be attracted to a network simply by money. Who's gonna give me the most money? Then say, I don't care what they believe, I don't care what their model is.

I just wanna go to this network because it has the most money, which I think there's a danger there. It's a part of it. Financial resources are part of it.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:21

Yeah, you wanna count the cost.

Danny Parmelee: 00:06:22

You wanna count the cost. But I've seen guys get in trouble by just choosing which one would give them the most amount of money.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:29

Yeah, I mean, I see the theological played out all the time. I see the modality or the praxis side.

And I would add into that group groups like the Anglican Church or the Lutheran Church, like they have a certain way, a certain liturgy, to the way that they run things, and even down to their service or governance of how the church is governed. I would even add a fourth one, saying relational, that there are. There are groups of people that you just relationally really connect to.

You know, there's a bond, a friendship. And I would say that's probably, if I was to characterize Converge, our own movement, that's probably the bond that holds people together the most.

I would say we're strong in theology, but that's not the primary thing that brings us together.

I say we have strong practices, but again, you'll find a numerous amount of different practices on how church operates and even governs within our movement. But I would say that probably one of the driving factors is the relational piece that we know we're a brotherhood.

When you plant with Converge, you have brothers that are in the trenches with you, walking with you through that process. I agree. I think you need to think through all four of those. Where do you best fit? Where you Best align.

If you're asking questions, take time to interview the tribe that you're looking at wanting to join. Understand the nuances. When do they gather? What are expectations?

Because I see what happens is one planter will have multiple loyalties and as a result, they're not budgeting their time or their finances well, because they're being pulled in every direction when the reality is they need to give some of that extra time and even probably those finances into the church. I mean, I know.

Well, I've seen guys that have planted with this organization and this organization at the same time, not realizing that Both organizations require 10% of their budget. In those early days, they just gave away 20% of their budget, let alone the expectations.

Hey, you're going to be at this event or this event, and how do you bridge that pull? It can burn you out pretty quickly in those early days of a church.

Danny Parmelee: 00:08:49

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaking to the relational side of it, that's what I'll say is, hey, when you're in a room or you see guys from that network, does that energize you or to not?

And what I think is interesting in just church planting right now is that you'll have denominations that have been around for a while or networks that have been around for a while, like Converge. And then you have some that are really recent, within the even last 10, 15 years. And so you'll see some differences there. And some guys will choose.

I just want to be around those that are exactly like me. And then some of those that are a little bit. Have been around longer. There's the diversity.

So there are times where you're going to be even a little bit uncomfortable in the sense that, okay, there's someone who's doing it a different way or they've been around longer.

But there's also a great advantage to that because you have the maturity of the entire organization and you've got people who have been serving in ministry for a long time or people who have tried different things in different models. So I tell them to really weigh all those different things.

Lee Stephenson: 00:09:55

Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic.

What other dangers do you see of or challenges, to put it that way, of major collaboration, you know, that, you know, I talked briefly there for a moment. But what other dangers do you see that exist out there?

Danny Parmelee: 00:10:09

So I think you hit it right on the head that more and more, both planters and even networks and denominations are talking about collaboration. And I think that there's a positive element to that and there's a positive heart to that.

But the challenge does become that we as human beings, we have limited resource and limited time and emotional capacity. And so if there are expectations by each different group, you can begin to kind of spread yourself so thin.

So just as a church planner wouldn't want it when their person comes as well. I go to this church on Sunday, but I really like your small groups and I like the missions program over here at this church.

We, you know, no, you don't want that.

Because as much as all of those are part of the kingdom of God and you're all kind of working together at the same goal, you get so spread thin, you actually lose your focus and your effectiveness. And so we still do work with planters if, you know, hey, we just really have a theological alignment.

So, you know, as an example, we do have converge in Acts 29 churches, and they're duly affiliated or they have a connection to both.

But we do have conversations of, okay, well, what will this look like in your financial giving as you have your missions budget and you're giving back to more church planting? What does this look like as there's different conferences and there's only so many conferences that you can go to?

What does it look like for guys that you're going to eventually coach down the line and making some of those different choices? So a lot of it has to deal with having that communication up front and really knowing what those expectations are.

Yeah, working with a planter right now, he didn't have that discussion. And so he did. He committed 10% of his offerings to pay back a grant or to pay forward a grant to converge and 10% to another.

And all of a sudden, yeah, it's like, oh, my goodness, there's not enough resources to actually properly plant the church. So he kind of got himself in some trouble there.

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:14

Let's take a moment and let's talk a little bit about why we chose to go with Converge. I know that both of us are. We have a bias there. I mean, we work in the administration per se, of Converge.

But I know when we were leaning out to plant, I talked to Man 4 organizations and then chose the one that I felt best fit. And even after we planted with Convergence, there were other groups that tried to woo us away or entice us to think dual affiliation.

I mean, one of them threw a building at us saying, hey, we'll give you a building. It was hard. It was very, very tempting to keep your loyalties pure during those type of contexts.

What for you made you want to choose to go to Converge way and Then I'll talk a little bit about our perspective, too.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:12

Yeah. And I think I shared. It was episode two during kind of the assessment process for us.

So I was at a converged church, and it really was the relationships that were kind of established there.

And then after going through assessment, having, you know, being assigned a coach and having people that were pouring into me, and honestly, with our church plant, even though we were a pioneer plant, so we weren't a hive off of another church, and we didn't get hundreds of people from other churches, a lot of things transpired over the years through the network and through the connections of Converge. It even directly fed into our church.

But I would say, honestly, I think the thing most of all for Converge is that I was then given opportunity to serve and to pour into others.

And I think that that's a huge thing, is that Converge isn't a place where it's like, okay, there's a few leaders at the top, and everyone else just kind of follows orders.

It really does have a leadership culture where the next generation of leaders and planters, as they're coming up and as God is using them, we want them to pour into the next generation. So there's opportunities to teach and to train and to lead different things. And so for me, was that initial kind of relational connection.

Then it was the opportunity to continue to grow in my own ministry. Leadership.

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:38

Yeah. No, that's great. I know a lot of similarities there. I think for me, too.

I mean, there was some financial backing, but honestly, there were other groups out there that probably beat the financial backing that we got. But to me, it was the emphasis on coaching. That I had people in my corner that I could pull from and that were working with me.

And even that I had an assigned coach that walked with me for five years into our church plant was incredibly helpful, I felt, as a young pastor, young church planter. They gave me a voice. Like I had a voice at the table when it came to our city and just our movement as a whole.

And that was refreshing not to be put into a drawer somewhere and say, wait till you mature a little bit. Now you. Now you can come and voice your opinion.

But I agree that there was strong theology, there was strong commitment, but the brotherhood piece was a thing that I hadn't seen a whole lot of. That was very appealing to me. I think that it comes back to when it comes to having these conversations. Choosing a tribe.

What would you say versus choosing a tribe and going totally alone.

Danny Parmelee: 00:15:50

Yeah, I mean, I think I kind of shared. Shared My. Showed my hand on that a little bit before, but, man, just doing it alone, it just. It just doesn't make any sense.

Lee Stephenson: 00:15:59

Don't do it.

Danny Parmelee: 00:16:00

Don't do it.

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:00

That's what he's saying. Yeah. As you're having conversations, I think, with potential networks or denominations, make sure expectations are very clear.

You want more than just a verbal. You want to see things in writing.

And before you make that commitment, just understand both what your expectation is of them and what their expectation is of you.

Danny Parmelee: 00:16:23

Yeah. And a lot of them should or should have covenants.

So basically, things that you sign, that this is what you can expect from them and what they kind of expect from you.

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:34

Perfect. Perfect. The next question, kind of wrapping up our key questions piece, is what will be the most difficult challenge?

I mean, most planters understand reality that, hey, this is going to be great, there's an adventure. But with every adventure, there are going to be obstacles. Knowing what those obstacles are ahead of time can be very, very helpful. I've found that.

I believe that there are three obstacles or challenges that every church planter will face in their planting time. One being they're going to walk through some type of personal challenge or crisis. They're going to go through a financial crisis.

And I think that hits both at the corporate level of the church, but also personally at the family level of the planter. And I like to tell guys, hey, just know you're going to face shortfalls, both financially from a personal in your home, but also the church.

That's normal. Because I think a lot of guys, when they face that, they feel like they're a failure or they feel like we're not making it.

Maybe we did something wrong sometimes. Maybe you did do something wrong. But you also need to understand that's just par for the course. Like, this is normal things that every planter faces.

And then also you're gonna face some type of leadership crisis. Any of those specifically that you want to maybe hit upon that you saw and experienced in your own planting.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:01

Yeah. So I would say especially the leadership one.

And the reason I think that that sticks out to me is because it's probably the most personal, where the other one's like, oh, financial. There's not enough money there. And like, there's never enough money there type of thing. But, yeah, I think leadership because it's personal.

So when you are just investing your life and you are so tied to it, and you're beginning to raise up other disciples and raise up other leaders, and when you begin to experience any sort of backlash which will happen. I think it's just, it's part of the sin nature, it's part of human nature. It's a part of spiritual warfare. It honestly is.

And when you begin to kind of experience that, which a lot of times can come within the first couple years of church planning, and it might have even been that person that was your right hand person, and then all of a sudden they want to take things in a different direction or they're undermining your leadership. It can just be a painful thing and to lead to lots of hard decisions.

Lee Stephenson: 00:19:07

And I think you hit upon a key thing there, Danny, that sometimes I think we can undersell or we don't give enough recognition or respect to the fact that what we're heading into is a very spiritual thing and that there will be a spiritual battle involved. We will have spiritual obstacles that we're going to face because this is on the front lines of that battle.

And I think it's easy sometimes to undersell that point.

Now, it's not something to be scared of, but you need to have a healthy understanding when you go into this, you're going to face obstacles that come from complete left field that you had no idea was going to be there. And the reality is it's spiritual in nature. It shows its head in different ways.

I know for us, we walk through, I would say all three of these things at the same time. We walk through a personal battle that encompassed my health, and I'll talk more about that in a future episode.

Just how do you suffer and lead at the same time? But that caused us to have incredible financial heartache personally.

And the interesting thing was our financial heartache landed at the same time that the church finances were being challenged. And then I had leaders turn against me in the midst of our personal battle as well. And it was awful.

I don't know how else to describe it, but it was definitely one of our darkest days of ministry, was walking through that season. I'm thankful that God took us down that road and I learned a whole lot about me, about people, about him.

And I'll look forward to sharing some of those details later down the road.

I don't care to repeat them, to put it that way, but I think it's just healthy to understand, like, there will be challenges, there will be obstacles, but you have to remind yourself that he who is in you is greater than he is in this world. And you know, this is where your faith, you gotta walk by faith, you gotta lead in the midst of those challenges.

Both Lead yourself, lead your family, lead the church. And to me, your darkest moments are also the greatest opportunities for God to show himself.

Danny Parmelee: 00:21:28

Yeah, absolutely.

I think with the spiritual warfare thing and understand I'm not a person that just like, you know, someone sneezes like spiritual warfare, that when you can understand that when you do have leadership backlash, it allows you to even value the person more and to even extend grace to that person because you're understanding that there are spiritual forces at work and to even just take a step back before you just all sudden, you know, tear into who that person is as an actual person.

So I'm saying this hindsight that I wish I would have recognized that during the time, instead of just essentially demonizing the person, but of really recognizing that, that's great.

Lee Stephenson: 00:22:15

And I know there's probably some of you out here listening to this. You're planting. You may be walking through one of these obstacles right now, and you're just. You feel alone. I want you to know you're not. We're here.

And there are a lot of planters around the world that have been there. They understand that, would love to be able to walk with you, pray with you. And if you're out there and you may be considering.

Hey, should I join a tribe? If you don't have a tribe, I invite you to join us.

And as we move forward in trying to expand the kingdom of God and see people come to Christ, if there's anything that we can do for you, feel free to reach out to us@churchplanningonverge.org churchplanningonverge.org love to be able to have a conversation with you and see how we can help you in the midst of your situation. That wraps up our Key Questions podcast. And I want to thank you again for joining us in our unfiltered podcast. Until next time, keep it real.