Getting a building

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:08

Hey everyone. Welcome to the unfiltered podcast. My name is Lee Stevenson.

I get the joy of serving the kingdom as the executive director of church planting for Converge and my co host here.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:19

My name is Danny Parmelee and I oversee church planting for Converge Mid America.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:24

And today we got a fun episode.

We're going to be taking some time talking a little bit more about strategic location and specifically the potential of building versus portable when you get up and going.

And I think this is going to be one of those things, Danny, that probably becomes a little bit more common where there's an existing church that has a facility, maybe they have resources, they're dying, they've come to terms with the reality of their death and may be looking to give their facility or at a very reasonable price, sell their facility to a young coming church planter in the area.

Danny Parmelee: 00:01:05

Yeah, absolutely. And this is happening quite a bit even right now.

We have three different buildings that within Convergement America where the church has chosen to kind of either do some sort of restart process or to gift their building type of thing. And then actually the church plant launch team that I'm on, this actually happened for us recently.

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:25

So I think there's my experience that there's a couple different scenarios that come to play. So let me just kind of walk through those scenarios.

You can kind of then, you know those specific churches that you've been working with kind of where are they at in that perspective and then we'll talk about pluses, minuses to go with one of these directions specifically.

You know, I've seen existing churches going, well we, you can use our facility but it has to be in this time frame, you know where they, they'll, they'll say yes, you can have Sunday morning, but it has to be after 11.

Or you know, you can have Sunday evening, you can have Saturday and you can use the full facility and maybe they do a small rental fee in order to do that.

I've seen it as well where they'll flip flop, maybe the existing church will go, hey, we like Sunday nights, you can have Sunday mornings and basically rain of, of the, the, the facility.

And then the kind of third scenario would be churches literally just killing themselves off saying we will no longer exist as a church, but here's our facility. What, where are the churches you're working with? What kind of scenario are they in currently?

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:31

Yeah, so a lot of them have, we don't say kill them off, but.

Lee Stephenson: 00:02:35

We like to, we're unfiltered man.

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:37

We're just saying as it is, we like to say, legacy leaving a legacy, but honestly that is. And there's even within that there's different ways that it can be done.

But when it's the point where their congregation can't even really exist, they don't want to. They, they, they gift the building, no strings attached.

That's obviously your ideal situation because then the new plant or planter and launch team are able to come in and kind of do what they want with the facility, the service times that that they want, the other one is kind of in it.

And it's not really a merger, but it's kind of a restart in the sense where they do give up all control, including their governance, which is really, really important because there's other times where church planters come in, they think that the church wants to restart, and they would say they want to restart, but they still actually hold the purse strings. They hold a lot of control over things.

So it might start out kind of good and fun and everyone's on the same page and also like, oh, no, we don't like really what you're doing. And so then they start, you know, the old governing board or old contractorship or trusteeship or whatever, start doing so.

The big thing with no matter which route is actually taken is that there is clarity of expectation with all of that. And for everybody to know that what you're going in and thinking is probably different than what the other person is actually thinking.

Lee Stephenson: 00:04:03

So, so important then really off the bat to make sure that clarity is, is, you know, focused upon, sought after, have things in writing. Especially if you're looking at a church leaving a legacy by handing the keys over to a new church plant.

Like, you're most likely going to need to get lawyers involved and make sure that everything is done above reproach when it comes to how the transitions can take place.

Danny Parmelee: 00:04:28

And one small thing with that that I think has been missed over times is when a church gifts a building, a church planner can be just so excited, they say, yep. And you know, they sign over the.

Lee Stephenson: 00:04:41

Deed and mean, I don't have to do portable in a school.

Danny Parmelee: 00:04:44

Yeah, yeah, rock and roll. Is to actually look at that legal stuff. Because what can happen is, is that later on down the line, someone can contest that gift.

So that church needed to follow their constitution to a T.

So if it said you, you know, you can't choose to gift the building unless you, you know, put it in the bulletin a month in advance and have this meeting and this many members and, you know, who actually voted you know, for this to actually take place, who has the authority to vote for it? Otherwise, what can happen and has happened is that a church plant is up and running.

They're all excited, they're in this building, and someone comes back later and says, that's not your building. That was illegally or that was, you know, done in a wrong sort of way. That's actually our building. It goes to court.

Everybody loses when that happens. Lots of resources, lots of money is spent. So making sure. And no church plan wants to spend that money.

But have the lawyers make sure that all of those eyes are dotted and T's are crossed.

Lee Stephenson: 00:05:46

Go through your bylaws, make sure that there's a good disillusion clause, and then you follow that to a table. Absolutely. Is critical. Talk to a little bit about the situation. You know that you're a part of the launch team.

This new church plant, they get a building gifted to. How did that all come about? What if now they've launched? What have you seen as bonuses of being able to move into a facility like that?

And what have been kind of some of the drawbacks of it as well?

Danny Parmelee: 00:06:12

Yeah, well, a little bit of the story is that, you know, I'm on this launch team and I am just a launch team member. And. And Cody, who's our lead pastor, you know, he was looking for space and, you know, was just running into different roadblocks.

And he had planned a worship night thinking that we were going to get one of these community centers that he was looking at. And also they said no.

So out of his desperation, he really connected with this local church in the area and said, hey, can we just, you know, borrow your facility essentially for, you know, this Sunday night worship service? So that's where the relationship started.

And I think that this is maybe the most important thing is that that opportunity, it wasn't just, hey, we're going to use your facility. But Cody began to build relationship with this church who had been without a pastor for a couple years. They were trying to hire a pastor.

Didn't have a lot of resources to be able to do that. So it kind of then all sudden we have this worship night there, and some of their members come to it and say, this is everything.

We've been kind of thinking, hoping, praying for. Maybe there's something here, maybe we should do something. So of course, this was over a longer period of time that they made a.

And this is the part that just like blows me away is that the former lead pastor, who is still a part of the church really helped to lead his church, to gift the building without any. Without him wanting anything, you know. And I'll be honest, I was a little skeptical. Like, what's your angle here? What are you trying to do?

Do you want money for the building so you can retire? Like, you know, what's going on? He is on the church plant team. He serves in the parking.

Parking lot, you know, and so he's there faithful, serves all three services.

So it was a huge blessing to the church plant and to the team, because as much as we don't want to admit it, building does matter, and it gives you this sense of legitimacy right away, right off the bat. The downside is, is that most of these older buildings were not built for community and kids. So we had to invest a lot of money, about 150,000.

And over half of that was just for kids.

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:25

So. So paint, flooring, ton.

Danny Parmelee: 00:08:28

Tons of that stuff. Yeah, a lot of it. So with the kids area, it was a lot of flooring. There was some walls. It was tearing down walls, and it was. Create a lobby.

Cost, you know, $20,000. Because they're just, you know, here's the worship center.

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:41

When was the building originally built? That may give some listeners kind of.

Danny Parmelee: 00:08:45

think that that building was: 1950

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:48

Okay.

Danny Parmelee: 00:08:49

And then it had an addition, I think, in the 60s or 70s, even under the leadership of that pastor that. That was there.

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:56

He was, you know, so they added the fellowship hall.

Danny Parmelee: 00:08:59

It's really. It's. Yeah, they added office space that then kind of became the lobby, just to kind of create some different flow.

So there's a big drawback with that. And then the other kind of drawback is. Or potentially can be is size. So it's a smaller facility.

So, you know, we had to launch with three services, which is a. You know, it's a neat thing, but it's also very taxing on a small church plant, especially when you don't have.

Lee Stephenson: 00:09:24

The volunteer teams established at this point.

Danny Parmelee: 00:09:26

Exactly. Exactly.

Lee Stephenson: 00:09:27

So what's the seating capacity of that facility, then?

Danny Parmelee: 00:09:30

Well, if you ask Cody and you ask a church planner, he wants to put 200 chairs in there. I said, well, hey, there has to be aisles, you know.

Lee Stephenson: 00:09:37

Yeah, yeah. You can't have grandma climbing over somebody.

Danny Parmelee: 00:09:40

Exactly. It's. I. I think the exact amount of chairs is about 175 that. That fit in there.

But honestly, even just with the flow and stuff at it, it kind of caps out125,150. You start to feel like, oh, man, I can't move And I need a little bit more elbow room.

Now the huge upside to that is that, you know, the third service, even if it's smaller and there's 50 people there, even 40 people, it actually feels full and dynamic and legitimate. Which again, there's a huge upside to that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:10:20

Absolutely, absolutely. So if you, you have a church planner out there, he's listening to this and, and he may have this opportunity.

What would be like three things on the list, Danny, that you would say pay attention to this. We obviously got the legal side of it. But what would the other two things that you kind of say? Hey, you can't. Don't go past this too quickly.

Danny Parmelee: 00:10:40

Yeah. So. So this is what I would say. The first thing actually is figure out who owns the building.

Is it the church, is it the denomination, is it the bank or is it the bank? Is it, yeah, actually figure out who owns it. And then second of all, it is figuring out who actually is making the decision.

Because it could be, well, the church owns it, but the denomination actually is the one that makes the decision because they have to sign off on it, whatever.

So finding those things first because there's a lot of times goodwilled people within the congregation they would love and they're telling you we're going to give you this building.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:09

Yeah.

Danny Parmelee: 00:11:10

And it's not theirs to give. So I would figure out that and.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:14

Then make sure the title is clear.

Danny Parmelee: 00:11:15

Make sure the title's clear. You know, walk through the legal stuff. The second thing is, is make sure does it actually work for you.

So if it doesn't have any option to do kids and you've got 150 seat auditorium, but there's no basement, there's no nothing. It's literally a chapel.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:32

Yeah.

Danny Parmelee: 00:11:33

And you might go, oh man, we can have these great worship services there.

If kids ministry is a big part of what you're doing and you can't add an addition for three or four hundred thousand dollars, then it just, it doesn't work so free unless you say give it to us and we'll turn it into our office building or something. That's great to not move forward too fast.

And then the third thing is just be patient and focus on relationship and look for God's hand in that whole situation.

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:01

Don't rush it. And I think part of that, even the two. Your second point is pay attention to renovation costs.

You know, if it's going to need paint, new flooring, I mean those things add up, let alone AC units, H vac systems, whatever you want to make sure. You pay due diligence to those things as well.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:20

And so. And so for. For this building, I can't remember if I did just mention. So put $150,000 into it, which sounds like a lot.

And it was a loan that was, you know, was given by Converge. That's $850 a month payment, which. That's cheaper than renting. Now, you add in utilities and that, you're still under what you would pay.

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:42

But they could leverage the equity they had in the facility to be able to get that loan.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:46

Absolutely.

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So smart move. So I think the biggest last piece of advice is it kind of just depends.

You know, as a church planner, you know, you got to pay attention to location.

You got to pay attention to, I think, even the past, you know, the past how people in that community viewed that location, that church before you have the potential and move in there and do you have the ability to change, or are you going to be absorbed by whatever the past reputation was of the previous church? But depends. Look for God's hand in it. And good luck, guys. It's been a fun conversation. Welcome again to the unfiltered podcast.

Thanks for tuning in with us. Until next time, keep it real.