Is evangelism dead?

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:08

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Unfiltered, a podcast about real conversations in church planting. My name is Danny Parmelee, and I oversee church planting in Converge Mid America.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:20

And I'm Lee Stevenson, have the privilege of serving Converge as a whole as the executive director of church planning. And we're just excited to be with you today.

We're going to talk a little bit about evangelism, and I think we both are believers in it, but it is a portion that is so important in the early days of your church plan, establishing that. That this is who we are, this is what we're about. Because if you don't, it'll disappear. And it's really, really hard to bring.

Bring evangelism back to the forefront.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:51

Yeah. And I would even say it's in regards to this podcast, is that I've seen a shift over time.

So I know when we were planting 10, 15 years ago, it was just evangelism was maybe assumed, but it was also talked about a lot, where I'm seeing that less now, and that there's almost a shying away and there's this gravitation towards just really emphasizing discipleship, which I'm a huge believer in discipleship. I'm a huge believer in evangelism. It's not one or the other, however, I'm just seeing that shift.

So I think that this is a good reminder and we can have some discussion of why it's so important to keep evangelism at the forefront of things.

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:30

Yeah, and I think you bring up a good point, Danny. But at the same time, I would even push back another layer of it and say, if you're not evangelizing, you're not really truly being a disciple.

Danny Parmelee: 00:01:40

Right.

Lee Stephenson: 00:01:40

And so they do go hand in hand when it comes to that.

And this is a prevalent conversation because one of the things that we are seeing in our assessment center is that the prowess of evangelism in the mark of guys that would be want to be a church planter is diminishing.

And we're finding that it's finding people lack or aren't as intentional about evangelistic relationships as they used to be when they came through our assessment center. And so it's how do we recapture that or how do we make sure we don't lose sight of that?

And I believe first and foremost, it starts with the planter's own personal life and what his disciplines of evangelism are. Why don't you kind of pick up on some of those thoughts, Danny?

Danny Parmelee: 00:02:31

Yeah, I think that first of all, I thought that if you were a church planter, that that automatically meant that you had the gift of evangelism. So even early on when people would ask me, you know, what are your spiritual gifts? I would definitely include evangelism in there.

And I realized over time that I actually don't think that I have the spiritual gift of evangelism. I have a pass for evangelism, and it just, like, oozes out of me. But I don't have all those stories of some of my friends in ministry.

It's like, no matter where they sit down, I swear they are individually leading someone to Christ. And so I think for church planners to just have an honest assessment and see, do they have the gift of evangelism? Some will.

Many of the church planners will. But you don't have to have the spiritual gift of evangelism.

But I would say that you have to have the passion for it and that it needs to be really a driving force kind of. Kind of for you. I know that for us kind of starting out, and for my own life, it really meant. Well. Let me go back a few steps.

I was thankful that part of my discipleship process or part of my spiritual journey as I was involved with Campus Crusade for Christ, are now called crew. And so I was taught early on how to share my faith in a very simple way with the four spiritual laws.

And even though I would maybe not do evangelism in that same way that I was taught, it set in me a foundation that allowed evangelism to be easy for me later on in life.

That at any moment I could literally sit down with someone and share the gospel in a clear and succinct way and give them an invitation to respond to that.

So for those that didn't grow up with any sort of tool, whether it's a four spiritual laws or Romans road or whatever, to find that tool or that way that is at least a base for you so that it doesn't matter. At any moment, you're kind of able to do that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:04:25

So, great, great, great thought. And I do think I want to say this because I don't.

I don't want to just expect that this is clear for everybody, that when it comes to planting, I do think it's very important to. To be focused on the fact that evangelism has to be a driving factor in the plant.

I don't want to assume that everybody understands that, you know, because there is a. If we just do it this way or if we do it like this mega church, we can Grow a quick, fast growing church.

And you can, and you might, but the reality is that the goal is not to take a bunch of Christians from other churches, just simply because you offer a better product that's just adding to consumeristic Christianity. You know, church planting really is driven out of passion for the lost.

And we've got to stay focused that church planting comes both for and out of evangelism. And if that's not a driving factor, we're just not gonna. We're not gonna see fruit that we should be seeing in the life of our church.

I do think too, that this just has to be a practice. I would encourage any planter or anybody thinking of planting a church. Pull open your cell phone.

Look at the people you've texted in the last two weeks.

If you don't have any non Christian friends that you haven't texted in the last two weeks, you probably need to reevaluate who your friends are and figure out ways to rub shoulders with non Christian friends and at least be at a level of friendship and relationship that you are texting them every so often. And so that, to me, that's a good marker for a guy to be able to evaluate where am I at when it comes to reaching nonbelievers.

Danny Parmelee: 00:06:16

Yeah.

And I think even as you're teaching, you know, not just an evangelistic process, but an evangelistic lifestyle, that's what we would talk about, that you are modeling it yourself and to find where are those natural relationships for you so that it's not seeming like, okay, I need to spend some time with heathens who are these targeted heathens that I will spend time with and convert them. And so for me, that came in sports. I played hockey. And so it was just a natural way for me to be around people who weren't in that Christian bubble.

And what I could do is I was able to share that.

Whether that's just sharing it from the pulpit, not saying, hey, I'm doing this for evangelistic purposes, but that you're sharing, as you're spending time with nonbelievers, the uncomfortable situations that it puts you in, the uncomfortable conversations that you have, but that you're sharing that because you're sharing your lifestyle of evangelism, which is then again the driving point of the church, and not just the church plan, but the driving force of the church from the beginning to however old the church is. 150 years old, 200 years old.

Lee Stephenson: 00:07:24

Yeah, totally.

And so I would encourage to piggyback on that, like, even in the launch team phase, begin to emphasize and train your people about the importance to pray for the lost, pray for their neighbors, pray for their friends, build relationships. Neighbor. Well, begin to put together a list of who they want to invite to the grand opening.

Establishing those things early will just help create a solid foundation for later, for this being just part of who you are, the culture of your church.

Danny Parmelee: 00:07:54

Yeah. Are there any specific things within the launch team phase that you think are just critical in setting that culture of evangelism?

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:05

I think you just have to reemphasize it over and over and over again, Danny, that, that this is why we exist as a church. This is what we're trying to build as a church. You know, we, We've had some challenges even in our own launch team phase where we've, it's.

But it's learning to leverage those challenges and help people understand. Like we are a church and we're building a church for broken people.

That no matter who you are, no matter what you've dealt with, we want you to come here and walk through these doors and know you are a person that matters, that you matter to God, you matter to us.

And, and so the way we treat, the way we talk, all those things are reflecting that story that we're wanting to make sure that people are hearing and that it's clear.

You know, we may articulate the story of the gospel or articulate, you know, the, the hope and desire that we have for people to come to Christ, but oftentimes it's not clear in a way that a non believer understands that this is what it means and this is what I'm considering giving my life to.

And you know, like for us, even in the last month, as we're here preparing for a grand opening, we're really pushing hard, an emphasis of who's your five? Who are the five people or families that you are praying for constantly right now? Who are you interacting?

Which five are you going to bring to the grand opening? And it's not invite, it's bring like.

Danny Parmelee: 00:09:34

You pick them up, right?

Lee Stephenson: 00:09:35

Yeah. You figure out a way. It means I'm going to meet you at the front door and walk with you in and help you check your kids in.

Maybe we go out and grab lunch afterwards. It's about the relationship. And I think the biggest thing is helping our people understand people are not projects. You're called to love them.

And that means even if they reject your Christ, you are still called to love them.

And so it's just reiterating that over and over and over and helping People realize, like the person that checks you out at the grocery store, that person matters to God. The person that waited on your table today at lunch, that person matters to God.

Are you treating them that way or are you treating them as a service provider that just did a, does their job and you walk out? And so learn to pause, learn to have conversation.

You know, just this past week, I got a chance to sit down and right away got to hear the story of my waiter. His name's Billy. You know, he moved here from California. He's trying to learn how Orlando works.

And I just got talking like, I'm a pastor, you know, and all of a sudden, next thing you know, we're talking about beer and we're talking about this, and we're talking about this.

And within, within the five minute conversation I had with him, I already had an opportunity to invite him to come to our new church and explain why we exist as a church. And it's just learning how to leverage those things.

And I think as a pastor, you got to share with your people in a way that they realize you're doing it. You're not asking them to do something you're not willing to do yourself.

Danny Parmelee: 00:11:03

Yeah, how do you keep a culture of evangelism, too, that does not make them lazy in the sense that it's only inviting to church. You know what I mean? Like, hey, invite your friends so that I do the evangelistic mojo type of thing and give the gospel presentation.

Or are you okay with that? Or how do you respond to that?

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:26

Yeah, great question. There's a portion. Yes, I'm okay with a level of that. Recognizing, like, everybody, if you make a decision for Christ, you do it in some location.

Like it may be in your house, maybe at the coffee shop, it may be in a church. And so I'm okay to leverage the fact, like people, when they walk in the church, they know already kind of what they're expecting to hear.

So I think that's okay.

It does present people a conversation starter about spiritual things in a way that isn't as threatening as if they just did a cold turkey sitting in a coffee shop.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:04

And so I say an invitation like, hey, come to my church, is a little bit of a softer than softer thing.

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:11

And people are more willing to sometimes engage that than just sitting down across the table.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:15

What do you believe about?

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:16

Exactly, exactly. And so it's figuring out how to do that. But then I think it too falls in helping realize. Help people realize. Like, this isn't just the pastoral call.

Like, we're all commissioned by Jesus to go and make disciples. And that includes reaching those that are far from Christ. So who in your life right now are you reaching? Who are you right now praying for?

And it's just constantly reminding them, this is why we exist. Like, we exist for people that aren't here yet. It means we're going to sacrifice. It means we're going to give, we're going to serve.

We're all that for this. This reason. And sometimes I think you have to have a hard conversation with your people and remind them, you know, through truth and love.

But I can remember one time standing up in front of the church saying, hey, guys, we're a lot bigger than we used to be. And it's it. Things aren't as the same as a result. And we're at a point now, too, Like, I can't know everybody's name. Like, it's just impossible.

My brain. I'm just not that smart to remember everybody's name that comes to church. Yeah. So thanks, Danny.

But, you know, part of it then was like, but it doesn't mean that your story doesn't matter. And we want you to be known. We want you to find a place that belong. But I also know that you don't want your pastor to have a bad marriage.

You don't want your pastor to be distant in their relationship with his kids. So because those things matter, there has to be other ways that you feel cared for and other ways to get plugged in. Here's ways to do it.

On the top of that, don't expect me to come to the hospital every single time your friend or your uncle or somebody might be dying and they need to hear Jesus. That's not my job. That's your job. You're the one that has the relationship with them. You're the one that has history with them.

Why would I want to take that joy away from you? I don't. And so don't ever call me asking me to do that, because I'm not going to do it. That's your job.

And so it's just putting pictures that help people understand life and how it connects to evangelism. And people tend to follow that.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:25

Yeah, that's great.

I know for us, in the beginning, like I said, had that kind of campus crusade model, taught our people how to do evangelism, and we were not seeing people come to Christ post launch. And I was kind of struggling with that.

And I had a coach asked me and said, well, have you clearly presented the gospel and invited People during the church service said, no, I didn't, because I thought, well, we're all doing evangelism. I said, you know, I'll give that a try.

And sure enough, the first week, we have people raising their hands and checking cards, and I'm like, my goodness. And so for us, one of our important rhythms is that we really tied then communion as the opportunity to present the gospel.

We believe that communion is only for believers, but then we use that as an opportunity to give a very clear gospel message. And for us, we celebrated the Lord's Supper just once a month. So the second Sunday of every month.

But then what happened is our people knew that that's when there would be a clear gospel presentation. And so they made a point. That's the Sunday that they wanted to bring their friends. Now, we probably.

I would probably say that we weave the gospel message in and even put invitation in price three out of four times. But they absolutely knew that the second Sunday of each month that there was going to be a clear gospel presentation. And it worked great. We have.

We have so many testimonies of people sitting through even multiple communions, not doing it. And then actually their communion became.

Their first communion became a marker because we would tell people, don't come forward if you're still considering and thinking about it. And then when they would make that decision, there was that very physical moment of standing up and.

And, you know, walking forward and taking the commitment.

Lee Stephenson: 00:16:13

Yeah, I think that's great. And I would encourage every planter in your year, like, plan out, when are those moments going to happen where it's very intentional, super clear.

Let your people know ahead of time that, hey, this is when you can expect it to happen. Communion is a great time to look at doing that. Baptisms are another great weekend, you know, weekends to really leverage those moments.

And then there are other special moments out of the year that just. They just lend themselves to that very clear gospel and calling people to make a response.

Danny Parmelee: 00:16:47

Yeah. What do you do if people say, man, it just seems like we have this gospel presentation every week or once. We're just. I'm sick of hearing this.

Because I've had people say that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:00

Yeah, yeah. Well, one of it, to me, you have to define, is it just ignorance or is it obstinate?

You know, so if it's obstinate, you confront it and push them on to the next church. If it's ignorance, I always say, well, I understand. I'm happy that, you know, but there are a lot of people in this room that have Never heard that.

And, you know, I want it so that way when you invite somebody that's far from Christ, that comes in, and here I want them to hear the gospel message for the first time. And so we're going to leverage every chance we get. You know, to me that's absolutely, I.

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:30

Mean, I know it's obviously it's a foolish question, but I'm just shocked it happens. It's only I say, hey, I can't sometimes when it really boils down to I've got one message and that is the message every single week.

So you are going to hear the same.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:41

And I, I, I mean, part of the language I did in our last church, we'll do in the same in this church is we just asked people like, would you say yes to following Jesus?

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:49

Yeah.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:50

And I got pushback on people saying, well, that's not biblical. I'm like, why is that not biblical? I'm asking people to say yes to following Jesus.

Like, are you, are you willing to jump into a relationship and be a disciple of his? And it was, people pushed back.

And I should say people long term Christians pushed back because it was different than the sinner's prayer that they prayed when they were saved. And so they, they just assumed because it was different that it may not be correct.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:16

Yeah. Cool. Good stuff. Any other thoughts on evangelism, stuff that you have found?

Lee Stephenson: 00:18:23

Tons of thoughts. Yeah, tons of thoughts. But my biggest thing is you just got to do it, like as a pastor, as a planter, you have to be doing it.

You have to be out in the community building relationships. Let people know who you are, why you're there. Share the gospel.

Call people to repent, call people to inter, you know, into a relationship with Jesus and then share the story. Share your failures. It's, you know, people need to realize you're not the next Billy Graham and so share your failures.

Yeah, man, I share with this person. It didn't go so well, but create the expectation.

Like, I expect everybody that calls this their home church to be doing this and you'll see people come to Christ. Thanks guys for being with us. This has been unfiltered real conversations about church planting and look forward to our next episode being with you.

Until next time. Keep it real.