Should churches merge?

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:08

Hey everyone. Welcome to the unfiltered podcast. My name is Lee Stevenson, church planter and have the privilege to be the executive director of church planting.

My co host here.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:16

I'm Danny Parmele and I oversee church planting in Converge Mid America.

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:21

So, so glad to be with you guys and just excited to talk about church planting and being open, being real and honest.

So let's take some time this morning and talk a little bit about church plants that get to a point in their history where other people, maybe in the community are realizing, hey, this is something viable, this is something good that's going on. And oftentimes what's happened standing, I see it all the time. I guess as you see it all the time.

Maybe you experienced it specifically as well, where a dying church in the community or something wants to partner up or wants to merge into a church plant situation. Let's take some time and talk a little bit about highlights how that can be a good thing or even the negative side. What can be negative on that?

What's your kind of experience? What have you seen? What have you experienced personally?

Danny Parmelee: 00:01:16

Yeah, well, I would definitely say that this is both an opportunity and a challenge that is coming up more and more now as more and more churches are getting to that place where they have facilities and maybe they've been to church.

They had a great impact at one time, but now over time, through leadership transitions, there's less and less folks and some of them are even literally passing away and the church is getting smaller and they can't keep up the building, can't keep up the church and don't have enough resources to maybe even hire another lead pastor. And so they're looking for someone that they can potentially merge with.

Which I said again, I think that there are some opportunities there, but there's also some challenges and some, some things to think through.

I think that one of the, one of the bigger things is just the expectations of both sides and is really does require a longer kind of dating process because usually both are really, really excited because the dying church is going like, oh, we found our. Our Savior. This is, this is the one. These are the people that are going to save us.

And the church plant or church planter is thinking, well, this is great. Now we're going to get a facility, maybe some extra people, maybe some extra giving, and this is going to be the boost that we need.

And so both of them get really, really excited. And it's kind of that infatuation stage with dating where there's nothing wrong with the other. Other group or the other people.

And so you rush into it and you don't really know each other. You don't really lay out what those actual expectations are.

So that, that's what I think is, is definitely one of the challenges that needs to be worked through.

Lee Stephenson: 00:03:02

Yeah.

Did you guys personally, with Epicos Church, when you planted that, did you ever have that moment where somebody came to you and wanted to engage you in that kind of conversation, talk about a merger?

Danny Parmelee: 00:03:13

Yeah, we did. And we had, I believe it was three different times that we did do that. In all of those times, there was not a building that was involved.

So this was another church plant that had maybe been going on for a little while. They didn't have a facility yet. They were on the downward kind of a trend.

And in all of those different circumstances, very few people ended up sticking. So in other words, the, you know, and usually this came out of a lead pastor transition.

So the lead pastor saying, hey, you know what, I've given this my best shot, but I kind of want to explore some other opportunities.

And so it would either be the leadership team or the actual current lead pastor saying, hey, I would feel better about this if I handed this over to somebody else than just skipping town and taking that other job type of thing. And everyone's really excited in the beginning and there's usually only a few people that end up, that end up sticking.

And that's, that's not really a true merger because we were really absorbing them, which we had no problem doing.

And I just remember the first one being really excited because, like, wow, we don't have a ton of people now we're going to get this boost of an extra 20 people. This is just going to be, you know, amazing. And then just slowly but surely those people just kind of trickled off and ended up going to other areas.

So that prepared me, me expectation wise for future ones of going, I need to be careful of how much time I'm going to invest in this. What my real expectations are, as far as, you know, another group kind of, kind of coming in.

Lee Stephenson: 00:04:57

I think that's wise. And I, I personally hate the word merger because it, it comes with it with some preconceived ideas and expectations.

Just in the terminology itself, where the dying church thinks, hey, we can hold on to who we are and our identity and continue to do what we're doing because now we've got this other base that's going to keep us, you know, surviving for another, you know, decade or whatever it may be. Yeah, that oftentimes, like you mentioned, gets dangled in front of the church. Planter is the building itself. And so.

Oh, you mean we don't have to set up and tear down in a movie theater or a school anymore. Like we can actually have a facility.

And I think there's a couple things that oftentimes get dismissed too quickly that need to really be considered now. Number one, it could be a God thing.

Like God may be in that, and he may be actually creating this opportunity for these two churches to come together and combine efforts to be a better blessing in the community. I've seen that happen. I've seen it work very well. But I would say those are situations that are rare.

I think, number one, the church plant has very, very written down, clear expectations. What pieces get carried over and what pieces don't, you know, And I oftentimes coach guys through.

You know, if you're looking at a merger, I think it's better to talk about it as more of a takeover. Like, you will cease to exist. Your identity is like you use the word absorbed, is going to be absorbed into our culture, our vision.

There's a different way we're going to do things. And you're more than happy to be a part of this. We're excited.

But the vision in which this, your church, started, we want to carry on, but the reality is it's not happening right now. So there has to be changes for that to be rebirthed.

Danny Parmelee: 00:06:42

Yeah. And then one of the things that I would mention as far as that numbers are important.

So when you have a church plant and let's say you're at 40 to 60 people, maybe even up to 80 people, and there's another church plant and they, you know, maybe they're saying, hey, we, we want to merge with you. And they're 30 to 40, but they kind of like the direction and whatever the circumstances are, they could drop their name.

They would have no leadership on the team. But if you have an influx of 30 to 40 people, what you can't script out and write out is the cultural stuff that that is brought into it.

Now, on the flip side, there's other church planners where they've been so nervous, like, well, I need to protect the culture. And if we have 20 people coming in, but if you're at a certain level, you're at 300 or 400 people, trust me, your.

Your culture should be established enough that other people, while there may be some initial kind of things to work out and maybe even challenges to the vision and to the culture, when you have that, you know, that amount of mass, that amount of people, you shouldn't worry about that as much. But when you're. When you are smaller, you can keep the same name. And no, you don't put anybody on leadership team.

But I'll tell you what, leadership and culture, even without titles at that kind of ratio, in smaller numbers will have an effect. Yes.

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:10

Yeah. Oftentimes use the illustration. It's kind of like a rock being thrown in a pool of water. Rock is thrown in a small puddle. The ripple effects, huge.

But a rock getting thrown into a large pond, the ripples are harder, you know, hardly noticeable. And so the same thing is kind of true when it comes to the local church.

I know for us, when we planted the first time in Arizona, we ended up moving into a situation where we actually took over a facility of a dying church. Now, the benefit for us was that the dying church had ceased to exist.

They just had taken the remaining members, created a trusteeship to kind of oversee the facility, and then wanted to rent the facility out to a church that was actually doing something that required some navigation and some political, you know, working as well to navigate that well. But we were able to honor the vision of the existing church and carry that into our church.

We invited all those people, say, hey, you're more than welcome to come, but you need to know, like, this is how we're going to do things. We're not going to do it this way.

And there are pain points, you know, there was, you know, so and so made this, and so and so made this, and it's hanging on the wall or, you know, and what are you guys going to do with that? And I said, yeah, we're going to get rid of it. So if you want it, take it now, because otherwise it's going to get thrown in the dumpster.

And so there were pain points even at that element where it's like they were. They knew they were giving over, in essence, ownership, but they.

It was still hard because there were so many memories tied to these different things of what happened earlier in the church.

Danny Parmelee: 00:09:49

Yeah. And I think what you said before is really important that God can work in these situations. It could be just a huge God thing.

I think that early on in the conversation, as the lead pastor planter, what you want to be at least discerning in the beginning is are they giving up the building for a missional move, you know, or do they have that agenda where they're. They're trying to just say, yeah, we want to keep this thing going for another decade.

And sometimes honestly that they, their expectations, they want to be buried in that church, they, they have always set and imagined their funeral service.

And so as you know, if you, if you build that relationship enough to be able, like if this is really what you're looking for, we can have this arranged.

You know, like, obviously you don't want to be that morbid in your discussions, but figuring out what is it that they're, that they're really wanting.

And if you discover that they are doing this out of a missional move, then you do whatever you can to just help that relationship to, you know, to, to move in that direction and celebrate their heart, celebrate and figure out, you know, we talk about legacy kind of planting or legacy gifting where they're, they're honored in that and can, can really be celebrated.

However, on the flip side, if you do begin to discover that they have another agenda, then as much as you want that building just, you've got to press into it. You've got to ask the tough questions. You got to be really clear about what you will and won't do and, and, and what that means.

Lee Stephenson: 00:11:26

And I, I would encourage you as a planter, if that's the kind of situation you're in, like, you do need to do your homework, get the numbers. You know, you don't want to absorb somebody else's major load of debt.

And so it's one thing if a church is buried and they're dying simply because they over built.

And so now they're looking for somebody to come in that can help bridge that gap or you know, if the building's paid for and there's no debt connected to the merger, it's a much easier situation to be able to navigate.

Danny Parmelee: 00:11:55

you know, built in the latter: 1800

And then when they did decide to close, realized they didn't actually own the building. So going along with that homework, part of it is to figure out who actually owns it.

In this case it was the denomination that owned it, not the congregation. So they had no say in whether it was sold or not, or in this case how much it was sold for or given away.

And so that kind of really, that was a lesson learned there. So that, you know, that you're talking to the. To the correct people when those types of decisions.

And then not only debt, but if there's other things with it.

So if the city has, you know, construction things against it or saying, hey, you know, you have to fix this whole brick facade, and they're looking at some $300,000 fix that they know that they can't afford.

So that's why they're looking to merge with someone, because that literally passes that off, really, as a liability instead of passing it off as an asset.

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:11

Yeah. And that's one of the things that it kind of bit us.

When we moved into our facility as a tenant and then we eventually purchased it 14 months later, there were certain things that were said to us about, oh, yeah, this is the relationship, this is expectations.

But then when we went to the city and found out what city requirements and city code were, it was totally different than what had been previously said. And so, for instance, we found out, like, space became an issue. We outgrew our space that we had purchased very quickly.

And we wanted to even add portables or do something just to, you know, create a little bit of margin, a little bit of breathing room for the church. We found out we can do anything to the outside of our facility without having to first do roadway improvements, which meant we had to add a sidewalk.

We had to have an entire another lane to the road that was in front of the church, including a turn lane, which totaled would have been about $250,000.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:11

Yeah.

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:11

That we would invest in roadway and landscaping before we could ever actually put anything on our facility.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:17

Yeah.

And it always seems, as you get into some of these discussions, that it seems weird as Christians to get everything in writing, like, oh, there's some sort of distrust there. But I really do see it as a way of stewardship and setting expectations. And I do mean that for both sides.

And so as much stuff, it doesn't matter what conversations are had, can't rely just on a handshake. You have to make sure that the people that are speaking to stuff are the ones that actually have the authority to do that.

And then also, though, figuring out who is really in charge, is it that lead pastor? Because sometimes the lead pastor is on their way out or they're retiring, and really it's the board who makes all the decisions.

Or, you know, it really is the lead pastor, and the board has no, you know, so you have to figure out, or it's the one big giver or the old lady in the church who's, you know, Father built the church. Have to figure out who's really making these decisions.

Lee Stephenson: 00:15:11

Who are the power brokers?

Danny Parmelee: 00:15:13

Yeah, who are, who are the power brokers?

And to just, you know, to, to take it slow and be willing to ask a lot of questions and to rehash things over and over and, and yeah, make sure that you're, you're not getting into something that, that is actually a negative and, and not a positive.

Lee Stephenson: 00:15:31

No, I think that's well said.

The other thing with mergers, I think it'd be good for us chat a little bit about Danny, is even if you're in a portable situation, I've seen this happen where church wants to merge in with you, they don't have a facility, but they expect that the fact you're going to absorb their staff or you're going to find a place for their lead pastor on your staff. What do you think about that kind of as a negotiating tool?

Danny Parmelee: 00:15:55

So obviously it can be a, once again, it can be an opportunity if they are at that self sustaining point.

And it depends on if it's being viewed as a merger or absorbing because a true merger you would be, you know, you'd be blending leadership and you're going to have to figure out on both sides, oh, we have two paid worship leaders now and at a 250 person church, we can't, you know, we don't, yeah, we don't need, yeah, we don't need that.

So those are the things that need to, to get negotiated out in the beginning or if it's not really a merger and there is one that is in kind of the primary position that has to be very clear to be, all right, you may be bringing your people, but we're going to be making these hiring decisions, I would say to wait on some of that because when anytime there's a change, anytime there's a shift, they may have 100 people and they're giving could be $100,000 a year when you make that shift, they 50 people could come and they're giving of those, of those, of that, of those units would be $50,000 instead of 100,000. And so if all sudden you promised, you know, all these different staff that they would be able to stay on that, it's just not sustainable to do that.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:16

Yeah, well said.

And I think too one of the challenges with that is for instance, if you have two lead passers, one lead pastor, saying, hey, I'll take the associate role, I'll come in under that.

There has to be a real clear conversation of talking about, you know, who's really the lead pastor of your people, you know, so your people are coming in, they're following you. But now I'm going to be the lead pastor in this situation. And can you support that?

Because people will still naturally view them as, well, they're my leader.

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:47

Right.

Lee Stephenson: 00:17:48

And so that it can create sideways energy. Very easy. If those conversations aren't clarified ahead of time.

Danny Parmelee: 00:17:56

Yeah.

I think that takes a very, very special lead pastor and planter to take that second position and to actually operate in that second position, it does not mean it's impossible. But more often than not, when someone says they'll be in the second position, it's really hard to let go of that.

And even if it means they're not preaching, they get paid less. Their title is associate pastor.

When you're, again, numbers of people, let's say it's, you know, your church plants at 100 and the merging church plant is at 80. The influence that that pastor has, which can be leveraged hugely.

Like I said, humble pastor comes in and is able to really operate in there and not to be subversive, can be phenomenal, can be amazing.

But if it's not, then you just went from a church merger to a church plant, church split, however you want to look at that, or how, I guess how well it's received by the people.

Lee Stephenson: 00:19:04

Yeah, well said, well said. I think the biggest thing, both of us, if we were giving a word of advice in emerging situation, is get clarity, clarity, clarity.

You know, it's get things worked out, talk them out, write them out before you go into this too quickly. You have time. So it's not something I would encourage you to rush to make a decision on in any way.

Danny Parmelee: 00:19:26

Yeah, I would say too, is that if you are really talking about a merger where there are kind of two equal parts, if there is not a high, high level of congruence on vision and philosophy of ministry, even culture and style, don't do it. Because what, you think that people will be easily changed in their style? It's not true.

And then you'll end up having half the people because half the people will be disappointed. And, oh, well, we'll take their worship style and we'll do like half the songs the way that they do and half. And we like their outreach style.

So half the outreaches will really be focused with initiative, evangelism and the other. And. And you think that you're going to put both together and you're just going to have a bunch of disappointed people. So just be.

Be really careful of. Of that if it is a true merger.

Lee Stephenson: 00:20:20

Yeah. Well said. Well said. Well, guys, it's been unfiltered. Just real church planning conversations. So, so glad you're with us.

Until next time, keep it real.