Planting a second time

Lee Stephenson: 00:00:00

Foreign welcome to Unfiltered Podcast Real conversations about church planting. My name is Lee Stevenson. I'm a church planter. Also serve as the executive director of church planting for Converge.

Danny Parmelee: 00:00:20

My name is Danny Parmalee and I oversee church planting for Converge Mid America. And I'm not planting a church right now, but I did plant at one time. So today we have kind of a special thing. Lee is planted for his second time.

And so what I wanted to use our time today is kind of do a little bit of an interview time with Yuli and really digging into what it's like to plant for a second time. I think that church planters by nature are crazy, but those that that plant two times bring crazy to kind of a new level.

Like, oh, you didn't call it stupid. Yeah, you didn't learn your lesson the first time. This is hard stuff.

And yet we see that God has definitely blessed that by those that maybe have been just wired and there's people out there that are cereal planters.

I don't know if you'd consider yourself that yet or not, but this is what I want us to do with our time is especially for those that are just joining us, giving us a little bit of a snapshot of the first time you planted so we kind of know where you're coming from. And then I'm going to ask basically walk through five different questions with you.

I'm going to be asking you about what's more challenging about doing it a second time. I'm going to be asking about the difference in the church planting landscape now in comparison to when you first planted.

Going to look at the advantages, like what advantages do you have because you have planted before in the past. What was unexpected in your journey? And I know that you're still kind of fresh into it right now.

And then finally advice for guys thinking of doing it again.

And that would be guys that are currently at a plant or maybe those that planted a number of years ago and for whatever reason, they're now listening to this podcast and something stirring, stirring in them. So why don't you start off. Share us. Share with us a little bit about harvest 1.0 years. Kind of how it went. And. And then we'll.

We'll jump into the questions.

Lee Stephenson: 00:02:34

,: 2009

It Movie theater is a great area, growing area town. There just weren't other facilities even potential to even be in. All the schools had churches in them. And so we, we landed in this movie theater.

I'm kind of fond of the movie theater. Maybe it's just sentimental for the experiences that we had, but it went great. So we were in the movie theater for two years.

We outgrew the theater at that point.

We started day one with two services, which is a little crazy and non traditional when it comes to planting, but we just felt impressed that people like options. And we felt like if we did our job right and got the word out, advertised well, we could have at least critical mass in those two services.

And that's what happened. So we never in our theater days were without two services, but our services were 50 minutes long and only 10 minutes turnaround.

So again, it was crazy. Not necessarily ideal, but it worked. So we outgrew the movie theater and then we moved into high school on our second anniversary.

High school is about a mile down the road. And we were in the high school about nine months. We ended up having to go from two services to one service.

And that actually was more challenging to our people and to us in the church setting. But part of is the facility required it.

eater, you know, maxed out to: 1300

And from that standpoint, nine months into being in the high school, we were able to move into what was a church that had closed down, but it was really a foreclosed property. Like everything was overgrown. Landscaping, wise weeds had taken over.

The parking lot was a mess, half the air conditioners didn't work, the carpet paint, all that just needed to be redone. And we moved in there as tenants and about 14 months later finally convinced them, the owners of the facility, to sell us the facility.

t, transitioned the church in: 2015

When I left the church, we were about four services on the weekend, over a thousand people in attendance and just seeing a large number of people come to Christ and get baptized throughout the year. About 40. We did a survey. About 40% of our adults had no previous church background before coming to harvest.

And that was, that was great because that's really the desire by which we planted that church.

Danny Parmelee: 00:05:42

Cool. Awesome.

And then so with this first question, really what I'm trying to get, as people would maybe assume, if you do anything a second time, it's automatically more easier and everything's easier about it, but doing it a second Time. What actually makes it more challenging in the. In the sense. Or maybe it's not. Maybe there's. There's not that.

But is there anything that makes it more challenging? Because you. You have already.

Lee Stephenson: 00:06:12

Great question. I would say it's a. Both.

And on that, Danny, that you're part of, it does bring an element of peace, I would use that phrase, but also angst that you have been through it, so you do know what you're going to get into. And so there's a part of it going, I don't really want to have those conversations again, or I don't want to have to face this again.

But on the hindsight, you know they're coming, which. The first time you go, I didn't know I was going to have this conversation.

So now you can kind of see it before it actually even arrives, which I do think is a gift in. In and of itself. I do think you can underestimate it and, and think, well, I've done this before, and you can relax going into the plant.

And I think that's a detriment. I think you. You have to work just as hard and it's just as frustrating.

And the challenges are going to be there just as they were the first time around. They'll show up differently, but it's going to be very real.

For instance, in this situation, we didn't have to plant in a traditional portable situation. So we have a facility where tenants, we can leave our stuff up three out of four weeks, typically out of the month, about once a week, maybe.

I mean, once a month, maybe twice a month. We have to remove everything from the stage, that kind of stuff. So that's ideal from that standpoint. The facility that we're in was made for.

For a church in a lot of ways. But with that has come a different expectation from people that come in the door.

They come in with the expectation that you're an existing church and you have all the services because they see the facility and they automatically assume you're this level of a church when the reality is going, We're 11 weeks old. Like, we don't have everything that you're thinking we have.

Our volunteers are doubling up to fill the services and the children's ministry and make coffee and, and. And people aren't as patient as they were sometimes with us when we were in a movie theater. Like, there was a sense of going, yeah, they're new.

They haven't made it. You know, they're getting the kinks worked out. And the reality in our Situation.

The building's been under construction for the first seven weeks of the plant. So even on our grand opening we didn't have ac. The AC went out. Lights weren't necessarily working the way they were supposed to.

Danny Parmelee: 00:08:40

Do you need AC in Florida or not?

Lee Stephenson: 00:08:42

You need AC in Florida. Like we didn't get the lights and the sound working until two days before our grand opening. Like what I mean working.

I mean on like the power was on to those things.

So we were literally in that morning trying to EQ the system knowing it's not going to be perfect when everybody comes in at a grand opening because we hadn't had a chance to really go through it and dial all those, those pieces in. But people's expectation was it's gonna be perfect. Yeah, you know, the sound quality is going to be right. The volume is going to be dialed in.

I'm like, it was all. We were literally building the plane in the air in this situation. Yeah, for us too, like 2.0 has been more difficult from the standpoint.

I would say the spiritual warfare and I don't know what else to contributed to the spiritual warfare around this plant has been more severe, quicker and earlier in the plant than we experienced in the first plant. It was there, it was real in the first plant. But most of it really started hitting us about year one.

This started pre launch and is carried into the first 10 weeks of the new church.

Danny Parmelee: 00:09:59

Wow, that's helpful. Let's talk a little bit about church planning landscape.

nd of really kind of took off: 2000

And now there's multiple networks, multiple denominations and church planting is at least even amongst the non Christian world is even a little bit more known. So what would you say has changed in the landscape for you now as a planter? Planting in the second time?

Like hey, now the second time around, man, this is different because back then, I don't know, we had to explain even what church planting was to people or well now it's hard because there are other church plants going on. So people are all fighting for the same launch team members. I don't know what's changed in the landscape from a planter perspective.

Lee Stephenson: 00:10:59

A couple things that we've experienced. One, I would say technology. So technology has changed significantly when it comes to web, when it comes to design, when it comes to video production.

There's just a higher expectation and quality expectation. I Think people coming to church expecting to see that we didn't necessarily have the same type of pressure that we had before with that.

Maybe that's because of the movie theater building situation too. But I do think technology, the increase in technology is both helps, but it also can become a hinder in some ways.

And in the church planning standpoint, I do think raising money for church planning is just always hard, and I felt like there were pieces of it that were difficult the first time around.

This time around, I said I would say it's been a little bit more difficult raising money partly because I think, number one, a lot of the people I've reached out to, I exhaust the first time around.

So even though it was successful, they're sitting there going, you know, but in some cases there were other people that said, no, we, we're, we've been blessed and we're thankful that you know this. We believe in you and the vision. We've seen success and so we want to invest in that.

But I do think there is an element that the fundraising have been a little bit more challenging, difficult for this plant.

Danny Parmelee: 00:12:35

What would you say biggest advantage having having done it before? Is it the tactical experience? Is it the just knowing what you're getting into? What's kind of the advantage of having planted before?

Lee Stephenson: 00:12:52

We talked about in a previous podcast like that there are three crisis every church planner is going to face that you're going to face. A personal leadership and a financial crisis.

I think this time around, knowing that those are coming, it allows you to prepare your heart, but prepare systems and structures around that. So that way when it does happen, you feel more supported walking through those, those, those moments.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:16

Yeah. What systems? You said systems. Like what, what are some practical things going into church planning the second time? Like, you know what?

I, I'm going to put this, this in place so that when this does happen, I'm ready.

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:31

I say, number one, having a backup preaching team early on has been helpful. I mean, a month into our church plant, I was out having knee replacement surgery. So I preach four weeks and then I'm out practically a month.

Danny Parmelee: 00:13:47

Yeah.

Lee Stephenson: 00:13:48

And.

And so knowing that ahead of time, knowing that this is going to be part of our story and how God was going to write our story in the church, it was important to be ahead of the game, to have people ready, able to fill in, that you knew, like the quality wasn't going to drop off just because you weren't there and that they would help support the vision of what the new church was about.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:07

Yeah. And I heard that you had some world class, phenomenal preachers during that time. Is that right?

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:13

I had a couple and I had one that was a little questionable.

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:17

Well, yeah, thanks for letting me fill in.

Lee Stephenson: 00:14:21

Absolutely. I think too, on the financial standpoint, you have a different understanding of how to protect your finances.

You see trends a little quicker than I saw trends before.

And realize, is this a normal trend just because it's this time of the year or is this a abnormal trend and we need to make some cuts or we need to change some spending habits now before it becomes a problem later on?

Danny Parmelee: 00:14:50

So you talked a lot about expectations already. Probably more than even tactical, like, oh, well, now I know how to, you know, do a launch team meeting or now I know how to do a marketing plan.

What though was for you the most unexpected thing going, going through it the second, second time?

Lee Stephenson: 00:15:13

Oh, man. I think one was just given the environment and where we're located this time around. We are.

And this will sound weird saying this, but, but try to hear what I'm saying, not what I'm not saying. We, we, we're planting in a community where there are, besides Converge, there are four other quality Christian ministries in our community.

So you, you've got big ones like Cruise National International headquarters and is in direct vicinity of where we're planting. You have Wycliffe's International headquarters, you've got Pioneers, you've got Reliant Ministry.

And so part of our challenge in this time around, and we, we kind of saw it coming before it hit us, was how do we keep the culture pure, knowing that we're probably going to have an influx of experienced professional Christians coming in the door. But we're not planning a church to reach them like we're planning a church to reach those that are far from Christ and those that are neighbors.

And nobody's reaching those people.

So knowing that the conversations that we were going to have with church people were going to be difficult and hard and needed to be clear right up front of this is why we exist. This is our mission. And that has been proven to be true.

We didn't have a lot of that the first church, because there just weren't a whole lot of Christians directly in our community. And so we were building right off the bat from that. And I know a lot of people would say, well, that's great.

You got giving, you got people that know how to serve. And I would say, well, you would think so.

But the reality is that's not necessarily always true because I do see a lot of People's mentality where it's like, well, I've done Christian work all week and I just want to come and relax. And so there is a gap. And sometimes they're not.

Not for everybody, but I do see it quite often a gap for people when it comes to giving and serving and supporting a new church, that of people that you think they should just get this. And, and so that's, that is a, That's a challenge that we're facing and will continue to face for a while.

And, you know, I've had guys even within the first couple weeks walk in and, and we've talked about this before, that sometimes the, the hardest people deal with are the church people. Early on in the life of your. Your church plant, you need some. But you want mature ones that understand the vision and can support the vision.

You know, I had a guy came up and just without getting to know me, didn't want to know anything about the church, just started ranting off his complaints of all the different things that we were missing and the things that we were doing right. And I looked down and said, it's good to meet you.

You know, my name's Lee, and I understand your, Your dilemma and what your expectations are and challenges. Here's what you need to know. It's not going to change.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:25

Yeah.

Lee Stephenson: 00:18:26

This is who we are as a church and this is where we're going as a church. I, I would appreciate it if you would have taken a chance to get to know us and know me a little bit more.

Maybe your perspective would have been different.

And I think that just totally shocked him that nobody had ever actually talked to him that way and challenged him, and he just kind of got in his way in the church world and stuff of that sort. We didn't see him come back.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:50

Right.

Lee Stephenson: 00:18:50

But I tried to do it in a gracious and nice way, but. But be direct and clear at the same time.

Danny Parmelee: 00:18:55

Yeah. Well, that's unfortunate. But, man, that's just. Yeah, that's part of it. Sounds like we could have a whole episode just on church people, so.

Lee Stephenson: 00:19:04

Exactly. Maybe. Maybe we'll have to do that one. But I, you know, I do to.

To piggyback even what I said earlier, the spiritual warfare around us this time around has been hard and it's, it's been. Been challenging.

And there have been a lot of days where you're sitting there going, lord, I, you know, and I remember these moments in the first time, but I feel like they came a whole lot quicker, a whole lot harder where, listen, Are like, one more thing. Like, really? And just constantly trying to be on our knees praying and asking the Lord, like, we need your strength to help us endure right now.

Otherwise we're not going to make it.

Danny Parmelee: 00:19:40

Yeah. All right. Finally, advice for guys thinking of doing it again.

Lee Stephenson: 00:19:47

Don't rely on the fact of how you did it the first time is going to work the second time. New environment, new people, different time, different age. You're gonna.

You need to be sensitive what the Lord is doing there in your life in that moment and in your community. Lean into that.

Don't lean on the fact of, hey, this is the way we did everything before and just expect it's going to carry directly over into this situation.

Danny Parmelee: 00:20:15

Oh, that's great. I think, if you could speak to this too, is.

I think that for guys considering it a second time, that fear plays a big factor, both for those that were successful and that those that weren't. So for those that weren't successful, fear that it will, quote, unquote, fail again.

And then fear of those guys that were successful, like, well, what if the second one doesn't. Doesn't match up? Does that mean that my first one was, Was. Was lucky? So I don't know if you want to speak to that.

And we know that that's a fleshly thing, but it's a real thing. I mean.

Lee Stephenson: 00:20:51

Yeah. Boy, there's a lot I can say on that, Danny. You know, we had to wrestle through that in our own lives.

You know, going, I've got a position with Converge as the executive director of church planting, overseeing national church planting. If I can't plant a church this time around.

Danny Parmelee: 00:21:11

Yeah.

Lee Stephenson: 00:21:12

What are people going to think? You know, so there is, There is a very heightened sense of fear as we approach the potential of doing this. And, and so I get that.

That what people may be feeling, thinking about doing it a second time, either successful or, you know, close to failure. You know, everywhere I read in the scriptures, God's people are. Are not a people of fear. God's called us to be a people of faith.

And we're not here to please people. We're here to carry out the mission of what God has called us to carry out.

And so I do think we have to pay attention to our heart and what are the fleshly drives and go, is this something God called me to in this season to do? If so, trust the fact that he's the one that's going to build his church. It's not you. None of us can build, build the church. We.

We can do what God has called us to do. And. And I don't think any of us honestly want to build the church out of our own strength in our own flesh.

We want to build it out of what God is doing and go where God is leading. It may not be successful. Are you okay? You know, and I had to come back and realize I'm not a failure. Like, to me, a failure is not trying.

Danny Parmelee: 00:22:33

Right.

Lee Stephenson: 00:22:34

And I'm a child of God first and foremost. That's my identity. Not as a church plan or a failed church planner.

Danny Parmelee: 00:22:40

Yeah.

Lee Stephenson: 00:22:41

And so we leaned into that and just going, I'm going to try. I, you know, God seems to open the doors and be leading us here, and so let's make it happen.

Danny Parmelee: 00:22:51

That's great.

Lee Stephenson: 00:22:54

So thanks, guys, for being with us. We're going to carry on the conversation in our next podcast as well. Kind of lean into some of these pieces. This has been unfiltered.

Until next time, guys. Keep it real.