Knowing your limits as a leader

Lee Stephenson: Hey, everyone, welcome to the Unfiltered podcast. My name is Lee Stevenson, executive director of Church Planting with Converge.

Danny Parmelee: I’m Danny Parmelee. And I oversee church planting for Converge MidAmerica.

Lee Stephenson: And in this Unfiltered podcast today, we’re going to take some time and just talk about knowing our limits as a leader. What do we need to know? As you’re leading, I think when we, I know for me, Danny, I don’t know if this is true for you that when I started my first church plant, I didn’t feel like there were any limits. Yeah, we’re gonna conquer the world. The entire city is going to come to Jesus. We’re never going to go through any financial hardships. I mean, that an easy perspective, I think. And I think, honestly, there’s a level of that you look for in a church planter, because you just know they’re going to get it done when that’s in them. But you find out really quick, I’m not God, I’m not Superman, there are limits to who I am and how I lead. And I think it’s a great gift when we’ve become more in touch with our limits as a leader. And I know, over time, as I’ve aged in wisdom, that probably become easier to accept, you know, from a personal standpoint. How have you seen, you know, in your own journey, a growth of awareness when it comes to your limits as a leader? And then I have a follow-up question to that as well.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, that’s great. And I think that your key word there is self-awareness. And for me, I can think of a pretty dramatic change that happened to me about five years in, and it did come about because of a coaching relationship that I had. And it was actually a coaching relationship that I had with an executive pastor of another church. And so that was really helpful, because sometimes when most church planters are coached by other church planters, and the personalities often are so much the same, that you need someone who is kind of drastically different, and from the outside to kind of speak into that. And so what this coach did is he not only had relationship with me, but he did do kind of a miniature 360, where he asked other staff members, how, you know, they perceived my leadership and stuff. And what that allowed him to do is to come back to me with a different information. This is how you are being perceived. And what that really did, is it yes, it showed me some of the strengths that I had, and the ways that I led well. But it also showed me the weaknesses, the blind spots, if you will. And when you become aware of your blind spots, it’s just really, really huge. And so for me, what it was, is that I was, you know, I was fast paced, and I really wasn’t encouraging. I thought I was an encouraging person, but part of my personality makeup was is that when someone did a job that I asked them to do, great, you did it. I don’t thank the gas station attendant for giving me gas, like I pulled up, I expected to get gas, you know, and just like for the staff member, like you did what I asked you to do, great, I expected you to do that. That’s what you get paid to do. So anyways, just even becoming aware of a few things like that. Oh, OK, so I need to just kind of grow in that area. And that’s not what comes natural to me. So it allows two things, either to grow in that area, or to surround myself with other people that will help to fill in where those gaps in my leadership are so that I can lean more into my strengths and less into my weaknesses.

Lee Stephenson: That’s a great thought. Why don’t you explain for our listeners, because not every listener may be familiar with the 360 experience. What is that? And how does that go about?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, so the 360 experience is basically having an outside person do an evaluation where they ask people above you, you know, people that you report to, people below you. So like in the in the case of a pastor, like, you’d be asking your board, the people that you’re reporting to, asking the staff member, and then also asking peers as well, too. So from all different angles, people kind of speaking into all have kind of the same questions. And then there’s also a part there that you are kind of matching up to what you think, so some of the same questions, like hey, you know, on a scale of one to 10, Danny, how good of a preacher do you think that you are? And I’m like, 10, and all of the people that answered the 360 survey, you know, might say three and it’s like, oh, wow, I perceive myself to be a 10. Everyone else perceives me to be a three. So got to kind of find out where some of that mismatch is, or I might say, Hey, I’m a three and everyone else says, Yeah, you’re a three. And so it’s man, it’s at least I know, spot on you are, you know, a three in in that area.

Lee Stephenson: How many of those have you done?

Danny Parmelee: I’ve only done two. So, you know, they can be intimidating. I think people can be intimidated to have them done. But I have found them to be helpful. There’s usually a cost to them type of thing. And again, the more that you have it done by an outside organization, the better that it is.

Lee Stephenson: Somebody that knows how to actually do this and do it well.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. And to stay as neutral as possible so that it’s not like, Oh, well, the board members doing a 360 evaluation on the person that, you know, it’s like, wait, what are you trying to get some dirt on me, you know, what, what’s going on? So, that was huge. And the other thing, it just opens up conversations. So for this coach, instead of this coach saying, hey, you have some major, you know, pride and ego issues. It’s like, as I’m reviewing the information here, you know, here are some direct statements that were made about, you know, how you handle different situations, and it makes it really easy to just kind of speak into that person’s life. So highly recommend being able to do that.

Lee Stephenson: No, I think that’s good. And I think what you talked about, I think, is a good process as well, like, this isn’t something you do every year. It’s something to do periodically, throughout your lifetime and career as a leader, because life changes, circumstances change. Your leadership approach is going to change in some formats, in some ways it’s not. I’ve done two, as well. And I’m actually in process right now doing a third. And I just think it’s a good discipline. It’s sometimes it’s hard. It is, you know, let’s be honest, it’s hard sometimes to hear things that you don’t perceive about yourself as being reality. But at the same time, you’ve got to see it as a gift to help you know how to best lead through your strengths as well. And I would highly recommend definitely go with an outside group that can live in that middle. But can be very directive in the way that they have conversations with people as well.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, that’s great. What about you? Were there some maybe aha times, aha moments for you, where you just realized a limit to your own leadership, whether it was you know, strengths, weaknesses, time boundaries, whatever you’re like, man, I don’t have that capacity that I thought that I did?

Lee Stephenson: Yeah, some of it came either through a 360 review, or some of it came just through life circumstances. I’d say probably the ones that are most impactful were life circumstances. You know, I’ve shared part of my story that, you know, when you’re 12 weeks bedridden, and your church continues to move forward and grows, you realize really quickly, I’m not nearly as important as I thought I was. And honestly, that was a great gift. Because there was an element early on, like you think everything rises and falls on you and your leadership and your energy level. And the reality is, that can become a major detriment to your church or your organization. It all is dependent upon your performance. And I’m very thankful. It was a little bit hurtful when I realized, Oh, the church is growing. I haven’t been here for three months. But at the same time it what it did was it released the pressure valve. And realizing, man, I’m taking some things way more serious than I need to, and I’m stressing about things that I don’t need to stress about. And that allowed me to reallocate energy and think through difficult situations completely different. And I think gave me permission to be able to say no more often. Because I knew like, it’s not gonna doesn’t matter like it, if I do this, or somebody else does it in the long run, it’s not going to matter that big of a difference.

t now that we’re, you know,: 1000

Lee Stephenson: No, I think that’s great. In my advice to our listeners are, there are a few things that you probably want to pay attention to that help, you know, personally, like, I think I’m pressing up into my area of limits. And now it’s time to adjust, like, I’ve got to adjust my schedule, I need to get coaching, or I need to make a change, when it comes to position a couple of them that I think I’ll speak to and feel free to chime in too Danny. One is when you stop having fun. You know, if you wake up dreading the day, dreading going to work, dreading going into the office, there’s somewhere in your life, you’re hitting a limit, and you probably want to refresh that. I think the second thing is, when you’re losing key leaders around you, when whether or not that staff or volunteer leaders that are high quality people, and all sudden they’re either dropping, they’re leaving, they’re finding excuses to stop volunteering, those are a signal that maybe there’s something here I need to pay attention to. Now, you’re gonna have change. I’m just when all sudden, you look over the corner, and you had 10 key leaders, and now you have two. That’s kind of a signal of kind of going, Hey, something’s going on here.

Danny Parmelee: So you remember that I shared that about year 5. That was the indication. And I just thought there’s just a lot of unspiritual, immature people that are part of my church, and I just found out it was actually more at the top.

Lee Stephenson: Exactly. I think too, I think pay attention to a few of your own personal habits. If you find it hard to get out of a negative spiral, there’s probably something going on. I think, too, sleep patterns. If you find yourself waking up consistently and not getting a good night’s sleep, there may be something that’s going on that you need to pay attention to, you’re hitting the limit somewhere.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, that’s great.

Lee Stephenson: Anything that you would add to that, Danny?

Danny Parmelee: No, I just, again, I think it circles back to that whole self-awareness thing. And I haven’t arrived, I’m constantly, I wish at times I could just have a video recorder and record myself in meetings and you know, do that type of thing to kind of watch it. But instead, it’s to rely on creating enough trust with friends and colleagues, for them to be able to speak into your life so that you can become aware of those.

Lee Stephenson: Well, you know, Zoom does have a record button, and you can watch all those Zoom meetings. But no, I appreciate that. And I mean, we always got to press through. And that’s the challenge for any leader is you’re going to seasonally hit these moments. And figuring out how do I press through, finding the people that can help you do that. And so our encouragement to you as a planter is find those people that you trust and that can speak into your life and love you even knowing the worst things about you. Thanks for tuning into the Unfiltered podcast. It’s been a great conversation. Until next time, everyone, keep it real.