Politics & preaching

Lee Stephenson: Hey everyone, welcome to the Unfiltered podcast. My name is Lee and my co-host here.

Danny Parmelee: I’m Danny Parmelee, and I oversee church planting for Converge MidAmerica.

Lee Stephenson: So we’re excited to have you with us today and with kind of what is going on in our world, as we record this things are a little crazy, somewhat surprising, disappointing. I mean, there’s a lot of different words that we can use Danny, which I think brings us to kind of the topic of conversation today is, as a church leader, as a lead pastor, as a church planter, the primary communicator, what do you say? What do you not say when there’s political challenges going on in the world around us? And so we could kind of titled this, you know, politics and preaching. What lines do we not cross, which, or are there lines? Are there guardrails? Are there things that you want to maintain? And I’m curious to just start with you, Danny, asking that question. Like, when you started the church, did you have a different perspective on this too than maybe later on as you’re leaving the church?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, I think. Yeah, a couple of different things. First of all, you know, right now, I am not a lead pastor of a church and I feel for and pray for those that are specific to this issue, because it is so hard it you’re always trying to figure out what’s too much and what’s not enough. And the pressure is really coming from all sides to say that right exact thing and the right amount, when it’s dealing with politics and other issues that are kind of going on. And so for me starting out, I was very much a don’t say anything, like, absolutely just leave it. So if there’s an election going on, and your sermon is on Romans, chapter five, that’s it. I mean, you know, you’re just you’re preaching, right? No one knows, someone could listen that from three years, they wouldn’t know that it’s the week before the election type of thing. So I do think that culturally and from a society, people are looking to their pastors to at least say something. Now I am still of the mindset and the perspective that you have to be careful, not only because of, you know, you know, our, you know, 501(c)(3) status can be revoked if we start to tell people who to vote for. But even just being careful of talking about the issues and kind of a wink and a nod and kind of letting people know where you’re where you’re at on things. And the reason for that kind of the reasoning behind being cautious of it isn’t to be, you know, politically correct, so to speak. But I’m not missing that opportunity in a very, very divided country, to speak to someone about Jesus, and whether you like it or not, if you get put in a box, you may miss that opportunity to be able to speak Jesus. So always wanting people to think that you have more in common with them than you don’t have in common with them. Now, maybe the area that I have maybe been stretched in a little bit is that I as I’ve grown in my relationships with multiethnic ministry, multicultural church, multiethnic, you know, pastors of color, disenfranchised, urban, you know, ministries is, is how much more of that that is entwined. And so having a little bit of grace, even culturally for how politics begin to work their way into the pulpit, and even the personal and social media of that pastor and and of that church. Now it’s still probably not my preference. Um, you know, but you know, all that saying, I know I’m saying a lot here. And and I’ll let you chime in in a second. But with this stuff, so let’s talk about like the Capitol, you know, the thing that happened at the Capitol. You have to say something like, you can’t be silent, and it stinks because everyone’s chiming in. And I’m seeing pastors work so hard to try to make some sort of profound statement. I also saw some go off the rails, and just let their emotions and their own perspective go and it didn’t help. It was really just adding fuel to the fire of division. And that would be my caution, like, are you adding fuel to the fire. If you’re going to say anything, it somehow should point towards Jesus point away from kind of the political situation and divisiveness that way, point it back towards Jesus. But being completely absent, you also may be communicating just as much by being absent. So it’s kind of a toss up. There’s no easy answer. And that’s why I said, I’m praying for pastors, because it is so difficult: you say something, do you not? How much you say? What do you say? But are you adding fuel to the fire? And are you pointing it to Jesus? We want it to point to Jesus, we don’t want to add fuel to the fire. So there’s ways that you can kind of do that both from a social media perspective, but also then when you’re actually preaching, how do you teach your people to be Christlike in these situations? So that’s my two cents. Go. Your thought?

s that came to the surface in: 2020

Danny Parmelee: Well, I do think that this is where, you know, the counsel of from the multitudes, you know, or from having many people kind of speak into it is important. And so whether that is coaches that you go to, if you have some sort of leadership board, but then also to think of the nonbelievers that you have, or that kind of the different groups that may be represented within your church to just ask them and to say, Hey, I am struggling, what what would you want to hear from your pastor during this time? Now, that doesn’t mean if they’re like, hey, what you need to do is tell them to, you know, lock them up, or, you know, you need to whatever the different sides would be that you have to do that, but at least you’re getting kind of a sense of, you know, of what the expectation is there by hearing, kind of from, you know, from many different people that you respect, and that you’re trying to, because again, this is where our own emotions, even if you’re not super into politics, it’s impossible to not kind of form an opinion and to get kind of riled up in one way or another to be able to say that. So this too, is where, you know, if you’re preaching and you’re preaching through Scripture, that you’re allowed, you’re able to use Scripture, this is what Scripture says about it. Like, this is how you’re supposed to approach the government. This is how you’re supposed to approach people who think different, or say things different than you. It’s about grace, it’s not about shouting, it’s not about you know, you know, fill in the blank type of thing. And so always tethering it and tying it back to Scripture is going to be your best way, not only I was going to say safest way, but it’s really going to be your best way to help your people. It’s discipleship. So think of your preaching as discipleship, how are you going to make better followers of Christ through preaching as our country’s and, you know, division, you know, or politics type of thing? So, I, you know, you guys are still online, right? Are you meeting in person?

Lee Stephenson: We’re meeting in person.

Danny Parmelee: OK. So, how were you able to approach even, you know, right after everything kind of happened? How much did you say? What did you want to say? Did you ask other people? And did anyone tell you like, yeah, you know what, maybe leave that or you really need to at least save this say something?

Lee Stephenson: Yeah. Great, great question, Danny. I come from the perspective. So let me kind of give you a little bit of background of why I’ve chosen to say things when I choose to say things. And kind of the staple behind why I may choose to say what I particularly said. Leadership creates culture. It always does. And what we see happening culturally across our country, I think is somewhat a direct result that Christian leaders haven’t spoken up correctly and enough in the right way to lead people in how to manage their own thoughts. And now the part of the problem is, with the rise of social media, people are being discipled. And I’ll use that term purposely. People are being discipled in so many other different factors and thoughts outside of even a biblical context. And now we’re reaping what we sowed. And so I’m at this point because of how hyper it is grown within our country, I think church leaders have to speak out more, and use that voice. Now the challenge with that is, you’re always going to tick somebody off. Like it, you’re just you’re going to disappoint people. But the reality is when it comes to speaking out, and again, we’re unfiltered, so I can just say it the way it is. You’re damned if you do, you’re damned if you don’t. You know, and so pastors, I think you’ve got to realize, like, it’s not about keeping everybody happy. It’s about doing what’s right, and what God’s called you to do and say. And so like, in this instance, the most recent Capitol Hill storming, for me it was I just got, I posted a couple things. I like to not post a lot, but posted just a couple things that draw people’s attention to truth. Because I think we’ve lost sight of truth. My first post on social media was just simply the word Maranatha, you know, come Jesus come perspective. And then I posted a phrase from Screwtape Letters that points to the dangers of mixing our faith with politics, and nationalism, and what can come out of that, and just use the words of somebody else, you know, from 80 years ago, and called our attention to the prophetic moment that it really was, and how that was playing out. And then I went live social media and just said, Hey, I know there’s been a lot going on. And I’m sorry, there’s, there’s a lot to say about this. I’m not gonna sit here and post on social media, but I am going to talk about it at church on Sunday. And I just said, get to church on time, don’t be late. And I’m going to start the service right off the bat. And then, because that was such a visual, I mean, it was almost a 9/11 moment, there were so many visuals that will permanently be impressed in our minds, I felt like like we need to, we need a swift, very serious moment as a church, to get people understand the reality of what’s going on in our country at a different level. And so we totally radically changed the entire service that week. And so we scrapped what we had done, we picked new songs, I switched my sermon. And then we started off the service, I just came out and I dressed it, I just took five minutes in called people and the main call was simply this: We need to take a posture of repentance. It’s good to lament, we can’t stay in lament, we need to move to repentance. And I just asked our people to take a moment and search their heart and then we built the worship to direct our hearts in that direction.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. And when you said you call them to repentance, what do you mean repenting of mixing our politics and religion? Or what did you?

Lee Stephenson: I think it was bigger than that. It was more I just took them to Galatians 6:9. It says God will not be deceived. You know, God is not mocked. You reap what you sow. And I said, when you go back over the last 20 years, and you see school shootings, airplanes fly into buildings, race riots, storming of the Capitol, like, all these different things, they should, yes, we should be sad, we should be disappointed. But I I challenge our people don’t act like you’re surprised. Because this happens because of apathy, and self centeredness, that of our entire countries embraces as a way of living, and God has told us directly we will reap what we sow. And, and so we as a church, we as Christians, need to speak up for truth, we need to show and live an example of what decency looks like towards all humanity. Whether or not they vote different, whether or not they look different. And then I said being people of integrity and character matter. And if we lose sight of that, how in the world do we have an opportunity to bring hope into the world that God’s called us to bring hope to? And so I said, I think we need to repent. Change won’t happen until we get there. And it’s created great conversations all week from people within our church. And I think that, as a pastor, you’ve got to not be afraid of using the platform. You are going to tick people off.

Danny Parmelee: Yeah, that’s what I love that that you said. It’s like you’re screwed anyway. So if you think that you’re going to somehow keep people around by whatever like saying this, not saying that, you know, not saying anything, you’re not, you’re gonna just lose people. So you need to think through more of what is the correct, right and righteous, God glorifying response in how you preach, what you post, how you lead your people through. Let it be a discipleship moment, you know?

Lee Stephenson: Yeah. And I think as any leaders like, you want to set the example for, what it looks like what it means to be slow to speak, quick to listen. Don’t be the first response on social media the moment it takes off. You know, take time, slow down, pray. And like you said, seek some wise counsel. Yeah, yes, I talked to probably four or five different people that I knew would have some unique perspectives on this and just said, we just sat and talked, it wasn’t even me trying to craft a statement. But I’d ask questions, and we just talk and we’re, as we’re talking it through, the Lord uses those things to help you figure out OK, what needs to be said in this moment?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. The other thing that I think is a powerful tool during this time, is it for you to be able to be vulnerable on the platform of sharing your own emotion and be like, Hey, I saw stuff going on and every part of me wanted to XYZ, you know, fill in the blank without saying what, you know, your stances and again, closing the, the opportunity to speak to people by laying too many of your cards on the table, but of saying, but what I did instead is exactly that, you know, I stopped, I prayed, I talked to other people instead of just, you know, visceral reaction type type of thing. And then people will see the human side of you, you have the same, you have the same issue as them. You have thoughts, you have opinions, you might even have political stances. But that is not what rules the day for you. What rules the day for you is your relationship with Christ.

Lee Stephenson: Absolutely. And I, I wouldn’t even hesitate. Like there are moments when I think as a leader, you’ve got to be willing to admonish your people as well. And call them to different reactions. Like, I saw what some of our people even in our local church were posting on social media. And I just told our people, I was embarrassed by the way that I saw Christians and even people in our own church responding to this. How in the world is the world going to look at us as being any different if we respond this way?

Danny Parmelee: Yeah. And then if you can point at them, if you see them in this scene, say like, like you Jim. That’ll really make a statement. People won’t do that anymore if they’re going to get called out.

Lee Stephenson: They won’t. They probably won’t show up anymore, either. So take Danny’s advice on that one, church planters. Well, it fun conversation. I know we just skirted. We just began that conversation. And there’s a whole lot more to say that maybe we’ll do later down the road, Danny, but that’s talking a little bit about politics and preaching. Thanks for joining us for the Unfiltered podcast. Until next time, y’all, keep it real.